2
00:00:03,480 --> 00:00:06,319
Speaker 1: explore what grief looks like after a decade.

3
00:00:06,760 --> 00:00:09,119
Speaker 2: He ultimately got the news that he had a chest

4
00:00:09,280 --> 00:00:12,040
Speaker 2: X ray that essentially looked like a cloudy sky. I

5
00:00:12,039 --> 00:00:14,640
Speaker 2: mean it was like dense with tumors. We both knew

6
00:00:14,680 --> 00:00:17,160
Speaker 2: what it meant. I never thought I was going to

7
00:00:17,200 --> 00:00:19,520
Speaker 2: feel okay. It was like Paul died and I was like,

8
00:00:19,840 --> 00:00:20,560
Speaker 2: it's all over.

9
00:00:21,280 --> 00:00:24,000
Speaker 1: What did being so close to death teach you about

10
00:00:24,040 --> 00:00:24,840
Speaker 1: life and living?

11
00:00:25,079 --> 00:00:29,720
Speaker 2: There's two big questions, what would be left undone? And

12
00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:31,840
Speaker 2: how can I live most fully in the time I

13
00:00:31,880 --> 00:00:32,360
Speaker 2: have left?

14
00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:39,239
Speaker 1: Hey, everyone, welcome back to on Purpose, the place you

15
00:00:39,320 --> 00:00:42,800
Speaker 1: come to become a happier, healthier, and more healed. Today's

16
00:00:42,880 --> 00:00:47,120
Speaker 1: guest is doctor Lucy Killanethy. Ten years after losing our husband,

17
00:00:47,360 --> 00:00:51,280
Speaker 1: best selling author and neurosurgeon, Paul Kallaneity, Lucy joins me

18
00:00:51,400 --> 00:00:54,760
Speaker 1: to explore what grief looks like after a decade, how

19
00:00:54,800 --> 00:00:57,680
Speaker 1: love evolves after loss, and what being so close to

20
00:00:57,760 --> 00:01:02,880
Speaker 1: death can teach us about being fully alive. Lucy Kalanathy,

21
00:01:03,040 --> 00:01:04,040
Speaker 1: Welcome to On Purpose.

22
00:01:04,160 --> 00:01:05,000
Speaker 2: Thanks for having me.

23
00:01:05,200 --> 00:01:09,280
Speaker 1: I have waited for this conversation since I've read the

24
00:01:09,280 --> 00:01:14,680
Speaker 1: book and when Breath Becomes There, and I've read it

25
00:01:16,120 --> 00:01:17,760
Speaker 1: when I still lived in New York when I moved

26
00:01:17,760 --> 00:01:22,200
Speaker 1: to the States, and it moved me so much because

27
00:01:23,040 --> 00:01:25,080
Speaker 1: I hadn't really come across a book like that that

28
00:01:25,160 --> 00:01:28,279
Speaker 1: felt like it was written at such a powerful moment

29
00:01:28,360 --> 00:01:32,200
Speaker 1: and such a pivotal moment in someone's life. And then

30
00:01:32,280 --> 00:01:36,480
Speaker 1: to have your reflections within it as well, it's kind

31
00:01:36,480 --> 00:01:39,400
Speaker 1: of left an imprint on me. And then my team

32
00:01:39,440 --> 00:01:41,600
Speaker 1: and I were sitting down and were thinking about bookstad

33
00:01:41,640 --> 00:01:43,920
Speaker 1: and it had an impact on us as a team,

34
00:01:45,280 --> 00:01:48,320
Speaker 1: and this came to mind immediately. And so I can't

35
00:01:48,320 --> 00:01:49,800
Speaker 1: tell you how grateful I am for your time and

36
00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:52,000
Speaker 1: energy for the trip over here. I know you've traveled here,

37
00:01:52,080 --> 00:01:54,600
Speaker 1: especially to be with us in LA, and just want

38
00:01:54,640 --> 00:01:55,920
Speaker 1: to start off by saying thank.

39
00:01:55,760 --> 00:01:57,360
Speaker 2: You, thank you so much.

40
00:01:57,640 --> 00:02:01,440
Speaker 1: Tell me what does it feel like remembering Paul ten

41
00:02:01,520 --> 00:02:01,840
Speaker 1: years on?

42
00:02:02,360 --> 00:02:05,080
Speaker 2: I used to think life was like a mountain that

43
00:02:05,120 --> 00:02:07,160
Speaker 2: you climb, like I'll follow the path and then I'll

44
00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:11,360
Speaker 2: get where I'm going. And now, like having lost Paul,

45
00:02:12,280 --> 00:02:14,680
Speaker 2: having taken our daughter from being a baby to now

46
00:02:14,680 --> 00:02:17,959
Speaker 2: being a seventh grader, I think of life much more

47
00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:20,280
Speaker 2: as like a series of moments. In a way, It's

48
00:02:20,360 --> 00:02:24,720
Speaker 2: like that my marriage and Paul's illness and even medical school, right,

49
00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:27,680
Speaker 2: those were all mixed together at medical school, residency, being married,

50
00:02:27,919 --> 00:02:30,600
Speaker 2: losing him, that was like a chapter. And now I'm

51
00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:33,880
Speaker 2: in such a different chapter. It's actually kind of amazing

52
00:02:33,919 --> 00:02:36,920
Speaker 2: for the opportunity to like dip back in, like to

53
00:02:36,960 --> 00:02:39,520
Speaker 2: get sort of like talking about Paul in a way

54
00:02:39,520 --> 00:02:43,000
Speaker 2: that's really embodied because you're also experiencing him and we're

55
00:02:43,040 --> 00:02:46,080
Speaker 2: talking about him like in a real way. And at

56
00:02:46,080 --> 00:02:49,400
Speaker 2: the same time, he's like sprinkled through my life all

57
00:02:49,480 --> 00:02:52,200
Speaker 2: over the place. Like you know, I'll go through like

58
00:02:52,280 --> 00:02:55,400
Speaker 2: a breakup and think like what would Paul say, you know,

59
00:02:55,600 --> 00:02:58,080
Speaker 2: in the situation to me, to him? And also just

60
00:02:58,120 --> 00:03:00,000
Speaker 2: like what would Paul think of Katie. She's so differ

61
00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:05,079
Speaker 2: She's such a like singular specific person, not a baby,

62
00:03:05,120 --> 00:03:07,320
Speaker 2: you know. So I guess like the things I can

63
00:03:07,360 --> 00:03:10,720
Speaker 2: say about it are like ten years on, you know,

64
00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:13,000
Speaker 2: I never thought I was going to feel okay. It

65
00:03:13,040 --> 00:03:15,480
Speaker 2: was like Paul died and I was like it's all over.

66
00:03:15,880 --> 00:03:19,200
Speaker 2: Who am I? What happened? Like it's me and I'm

67
00:03:19,240 --> 00:03:22,040
Speaker 2: here and I have this baby. But I'm so lonely.

68
00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:24,760
Speaker 2: How is this ever going to fill in? And my

69
00:03:24,800 --> 00:03:27,480
Speaker 2: mom said, like, things will fill in, It'll become okay.

70
00:03:27,480 --> 00:03:30,000
Speaker 2: And I was like, I literally don't believe you. But

71
00:03:30,080 --> 00:03:33,920
Speaker 2: it's like things do, like things become okay. And then

72
00:03:33,919 --> 00:03:36,600
Speaker 2: at the same time, like even after you lose someone,

73
00:03:36,880 --> 00:03:40,080
Speaker 2: like they don't even remain static, even though they're gone,

74
00:03:40,200 --> 00:03:44,200
Speaker 2: like you're not static. You continue to learn new things

75
00:03:44,200 --> 00:03:46,800
Speaker 2: about them, you know. With Paul, I hear from Paul's

76
00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:48,920
Speaker 2: readers about his book, and that's sort of like an

77
00:03:48,960 --> 00:03:53,160
Speaker 2: ongoing relationship with him through other people. Anyway, I guess

78
00:03:53,200 --> 00:03:56,160
Speaker 2: it's all just like a beautiful terrible mix.

79
00:03:56,400 --> 00:03:59,160
Speaker 1: Thank you for sharing that. Yeah, is there anything you

80
00:03:59,240 --> 00:04:00,800
Speaker 1: understand different about Paul?

81
00:04:01,360 --> 00:04:02,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, like the thing that makes me feel

82
00:04:02,760 --> 00:04:04,680
Speaker 2: like when it burst into tears is actually a thing

83
00:04:04,720 --> 00:04:08,400
Speaker 2: I don't yet understand, which is you know, Paul, he

84
00:04:08,480 --> 00:04:12,360
Speaker 2: was a doctor. He was like young neurosurgeon, really interested

85
00:04:12,400 --> 00:04:15,720
Speaker 2: in meaning immortality, like thought he would become a professor

86
00:04:15,720 --> 00:04:18,080
Speaker 2: of philosophy or a writer, and then sort of surprised

87
00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:23,760
Speaker 2: himself by going into medicine and was incredibly intoxicated by neurosurgery.

88
00:04:23,839 --> 00:04:28,520
Speaker 2: Because the brain is just an organ in our body,

89
00:04:28,640 --> 00:04:30,679
Speaker 2: like our liver, like our heart, but then it's also

90
00:04:30,760 --> 00:04:33,920
Speaker 2: the seat of identity. And he was so interested in, Okay,

91
00:04:33,920 --> 00:04:38,240
Speaker 2: if you're undergoing like brain trauma, a stroke, you know,

92
00:04:38,279 --> 00:04:42,080
Speaker 2: a tumor, how does that alter your identity and meaning?

93
00:04:42,120 --> 00:04:46,360
Speaker 2: But also how does like neurosurgery alter your sense of identity.

94
00:04:46,640 --> 00:04:49,120
Speaker 2: He was really interested in patients who are facing like

95
00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:52,920
Speaker 2: upheavals in meaning and identity. Then he himself became sick,

96
00:04:52,960 --> 00:04:55,839
Speaker 2: had to face this whole upheaval, had to face the

97
00:04:55,920 --> 00:04:59,520
Speaker 2: end of his life. And I felt like as Paul

98
00:04:59,640 --> 00:05:03,400
Speaker 2: was going through this serious illness and dying, I really

99
00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:07,320
Speaker 2: felt immediately in it with him. I felt so like

100
00:05:07,600 --> 00:05:09,640
Speaker 2: fused with him. We had to do so many things

101
00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:12,039
Speaker 2: together to take care of him, to make sure the

102
00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:15,760
Speaker 2: book got written, to cope, to like show up for

103
00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:20,919
Speaker 2: each other in like every way. But I wonder whether,

104
00:05:22,680 --> 00:05:26,040
Speaker 2: like when and if something happens to me and I'm

105
00:05:26,080 --> 00:05:30,359
Speaker 2: sick and dying, if I'll read Paul's book and see

106
00:05:30,360 --> 00:05:33,880
Speaker 2: how much I didn't understand and see like new things

107
00:05:33,920 --> 00:05:36,640
Speaker 2: in the words, or like reflect on his experience and

108
00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:39,320
Speaker 2: think like, oh is he alone in that? And so

109
00:05:39,440 --> 00:05:41,120
Speaker 2: like that sort of breaks my heart, like what did

110
00:05:41,120 --> 00:05:44,120
Speaker 2: I miss? You know, an answer to your question of

111
00:05:44,160 --> 00:05:47,000
Speaker 2: like how have I gotten to know Paul differently? Yeah,

112
00:05:47,040 --> 00:05:49,279
Speaker 2: I mean when someone dies, like stories come rushing in,

113
00:05:49,920 --> 00:05:53,200
Speaker 2: and then I think reading his book at different phases

114
00:05:53,240 --> 00:05:55,480
Speaker 2: of my own life, I even get different things, even

115
00:05:55,520 --> 00:05:58,520
Speaker 2: though I knew him so well. And then I think,

116
00:05:58,839 --> 00:06:00,960
Speaker 2: you know, just the process. There's a flip side, which

117
00:06:01,000 --> 00:06:04,200
Speaker 2: is like how to not flatten someone after they die.

118
00:06:04,600 --> 00:06:06,880
Speaker 2: Like I think, like when someone dies, they're sort of

119
00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:10,279
Speaker 2: suddenly they become like so amazing and perfect and I

120
00:06:10,320 --> 00:06:12,200
Speaker 2: can't believe we lost this person, and all those things

121
00:06:12,240 --> 00:06:16,760
Speaker 2: are true. But at the same time, it's like he like,

122
00:06:17,320 --> 00:06:19,000
Speaker 2: you know, left his socks on the floor and it

123
00:06:19,000 --> 00:06:21,480
Speaker 2: annoyed me, like, you know, just he was just a

124
00:06:21,520 --> 00:06:24,159
Speaker 2: regular person, and he was funny, and he drank too

125
00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:27,880
Speaker 2: much whiskey, and he like just he was like textured,

126
00:06:28,200 --> 00:06:30,440
Speaker 2: you know. And so I often think about, like all

127
00:06:30,440 --> 00:06:32,080
Speaker 2: the things I do remember about him, how do I

128
00:06:32,200 --> 00:06:36,520
Speaker 2: keep those like in memory and keep him like complicated

129
00:06:37,080 --> 00:06:38,320
Speaker 2: instead of like mythic.

130
00:06:38,720 --> 00:06:42,920
Speaker 1: Both of those answers to what you said. You almost

131
00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:45,760
Speaker 1: feel like you don't understand, which maybe you never will

132
00:06:45,839 --> 00:06:48,680
Speaker 1: until we're all in the same position and going through

133
00:06:48,680 --> 00:06:52,680
Speaker 1: something similar. And when we're facing not lost through someone else,

134
00:06:52,720 --> 00:06:55,760
Speaker 1: but loss of our safe right, there may be certain

135
00:06:55,760 --> 00:06:58,719
Speaker 1: things that we miss on that journey and we don't

136
00:06:58,800 --> 00:07:03,920
Speaker 1: recognize and maybe we shouldn't until sure, yeah I couldn't,

137
00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:06,599
Speaker 1: Yeah exactly. But then on the flip side, the idea

138
00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:10,840
Speaker 1: that you're saying that, it's almost like, sometimes we don't

139
00:07:10,880 --> 00:07:13,880
Speaker 1: celebrate people and until their God, sure we only see

140
00:07:13,920 --> 00:07:14,680
Speaker 1: all the bad things.

141
00:07:14,680 --> 00:07:15,360
Speaker 2: Isn't that interesting?

142
00:07:15,480 --> 00:07:15,680
Speaker 3: Yeah?

143
00:07:15,720 --> 00:07:18,080
Speaker 1: And then as you're saying on the flip side, when

144
00:07:18,120 --> 00:07:20,600
Speaker 1: someone goes, we only see the good things, and we do,

145
00:07:21,080 --> 00:07:23,920
Speaker 1: and it's so fascinating how the mind does that, right,

146
00:07:24,200 --> 00:07:26,000
Speaker 1: I guess he would know as a neuro said, like

147
00:07:26,080 --> 00:07:28,080
Speaker 1: you know why we do that?

148
00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:29,040
Speaker 2: Yeah?

149
00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:32,160
Speaker 1: Yeah? And where that comes from? Like why is it

150
00:07:32,200 --> 00:07:32,920
Speaker 1: that we kind.

151
00:07:32,720 --> 00:07:35,440
Speaker 2: Of like, what's the neuroscience of grief, the.

152
00:07:35,400 --> 00:07:37,800
Speaker 1: Neuro science of that grief of how we block people's

153
00:07:37,840 --> 00:07:40,240
Speaker 1: good things when they're alive and block people's you know,

154
00:07:40,360 --> 00:07:41,400
Speaker 1: bad things when they're gone.

155
00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:44,720
Speaker 2: And greater is it about remembering like remember to notice

156
00:07:44,840 --> 00:07:47,040
Speaker 2: when you have your person here and then yeah, when

157
00:07:47,080 --> 00:07:50,080
Speaker 2: they leave, remember to Yeah, don't forget.

158
00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:54,560
Speaker 1: When you hear the age old phrase time heels or wounds.

159
00:07:54,880 --> 00:07:55,920
Speaker 1: How does that sit with you?

160
00:07:56,120 --> 00:07:58,040
Speaker 2: I mean, it's sort of like simplistic, and it actually

161
00:07:58,120 --> 00:08:01,360
Speaker 2: makes it sound like the wounds will then go away,

162
00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:04,400
Speaker 2: And so I don't believe that part, but I do believe.

163
00:08:04,440 --> 00:08:06,720
Speaker 2: I do think time heals all wounds in a certain way.

164
00:08:07,520 --> 00:08:09,880
Speaker 2: Prince Harry was writing about grief and he said something

165
00:08:09,960 --> 00:08:13,960
Speaker 2: like grief is a wound that festers. I was sort

166
00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:15,640
Speaker 2: of like, oh, I don't agree with that, because if

167
00:08:15,640 --> 00:08:19,960
Speaker 2: something festers, it's like untended, right, And so I do

168
00:08:20,120 --> 00:08:23,600
Speaker 2: think like there will always be a scar, there will

169
00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:27,280
Speaker 2: always be something that looks different, feels different, something you're carrying,

170
00:08:27,400 --> 00:08:29,640
Speaker 2: something you're literally caring on your body. Like that's also

171
00:08:29,680 --> 00:08:32,520
Speaker 2: how grief feels. I think if you can sort of

172
00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:36,240
Speaker 2: think to yourself like it's going to be okay in

173
00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:39,360
Speaker 2: some way you just don't know what okay means, and

174
00:08:39,480 --> 00:08:43,599
Speaker 2: like sort of let the pain move through you, you

175
00:08:43,640 --> 00:08:46,880
Speaker 2: will end up somewhere you know that's different and better

176
00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:47,560
Speaker 2: than you thought.

177
00:08:47,960 --> 00:08:51,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting how all these statements have stood the

178
00:08:51,480 --> 00:08:55,320
Speaker 1: test of time, but they have so much nuance when

179
00:08:55,320 --> 00:08:56,760
Speaker 1: you're actually living them. Yeah.

180
00:08:56,840 --> 00:08:58,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, And some of them don't work right, like yeah,

181
00:08:58,960 --> 00:09:01,160
Speaker 2: or you have to side which ones work for you,

182
00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:03,360
Speaker 2: Like if someone sends you a card with something on it,

183
00:09:03,440 --> 00:09:05,760
Speaker 2: or if someone says, you know, everything happens for a

184
00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:08,600
Speaker 2: reason and you don't believe that it's not helpful, but

185
00:09:08,720 --> 00:09:11,720
Speaker 2: you're right. I think many of those, like things in

186
00:09:11,760 --> 00:09:14,000
Speaker 2: literature sayings like that, hold up.

187
00:09:13,960 --> 00:09:15,960
Speaker 1: What do you feel about that one? Everything happens for

188
00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:16,440
Speaker 1: a reason.

189
00:09:16,920 --> 00:09:22,400
Speaker 2: I don't subscribe to that necessarily, but I think more

190
00:09:22,440 --> 00:09:25,640
Speaker 2: than I did before, I think when hard things happen,

191
00:09:26,200 --> 00:09:29,200
Speaker 2: I do believe something beautiful will come out of it,

192
00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:32,719
Speaker 2: something even if the only thing that comes out of

193
00:09:32,760 --> 00:09:36,800
Speaker 2: it is that you suffered, which connects you to every

194
00:09:36,880 --> 00:09:41,760
Speaker 2: human being everywhere across time ever, and then potentially deepens

195
00:09:41,760 --> 00:09:45,400
Speaker 2: your empathy for other people, or deepens your ability to

196
00:09:45,480 --> 00:09:48,840
Speaker 2: be a friend, or you know, whatever it might be.

197
00:09:49,320 --> 00:09:53,760
Speaker 2: So and then I think, like suffering, have you read

198
00:09:53,800 --> 00:09:54,600
Speaker 2: man search for meaning?

199
00:09:54,640 --> 00:09:54,800
Speaker 1: Yeah?

200
00:09:54,800 --> 00:09:59,679
Speaker 2: Of course, yeah, of course, yeah, no, no, no, you're saying, yeah,

201
00:09:59,720 --> 00:10:01,559
Speaker 2: I'm not prize you read us. That's why I say,

202
00:10:02,040 --> 00:10:06,040
Speaker 2: And like Victor Frankel, who you know, survived the Holocaust

203
00:10:06,240 --> 00:10:09,280
Speaker 2: in a concentration camp and then went on to become

204
00:10:09,280 --> 00:10:13,199
Speaker 2: a therapist. Afterward, he talks about witnessing all of these

205
00:10:13,240 --> 00:10:17,480
Speaker 2: people and how they survived the unsurvivable, and he ends

206
00:10:17,559 --> 00:10:21,360
Speaker 2: up talking about like how purpose or relationships like you

207
00:10:21,400 --> 00:10:23,520
Speaker 2: wouldn't survive just because you had those, but you could

208
00:10:23,520 --> 00:10:26,960
Speaker 2: only survive if you had something you were waiting for

209
00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:30,280
Speaker 2: or someone who was waiting for you on the other side.

210
00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:34,280
Speaker 2: And ultimately he ends up talking about how suffering is

211
00:10:34,320 --> 00:10:36,720
Speaker 2: actually a really meaningful part of our lives. He says,

212
00:10:36,760 --> 00:10:40,520
Speaker 2: like his construction is that meaning comes from three things,

213
00:10:40,559 --> 00:10:44,400
Speaker 2: and he says he conceives of work and love and suffering,

214
00:10:44,679 --> 00:10:47,200
Speaker 2: and I love that. He says, work is like the

215
00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:50,120
Speaker 2: things you do and create, you know, like the imprint

216
00:10:50,160 --> 00:10:53,760
Speaker 2: you leave on the world. Maybe love is like all

217
00:10:53,800 --> 00:10:56,920
Speaker 2: the types of love between people. And then gratitude also,

218
00:10:57,240 --> 00:11:00,280
Speaker 2: and just like love writ large, and then suffering he

219
00:11:00,320 --> 00:11:02,920
Speaker 2: talks about how like suffering is not this sort of

220
00:11:02,960 --> 00:11:05,400
Speaker 2: like side event that you wish would go away. It

221
00:11:05,480 --> 00:11:09,560
Speaker 2: is here. It will be here, whether something beautiful comes

222
00:11:09,559 --> 00:11:11,920
Speaker 2: out of it, whether it connects you to other people,

223
00:11:12,040 --> 00:11:17,880
Speaker 2: or whether just like the pure achievement of just persisting alone.

224
00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:21,200
Speaker 2: I think there is like actual meaning in that. And

225
00:11:21,240 --> 00:11:24,040
Speaker 2: so I think the idea of like everything happens for

226
00:11:24,080 --> 00:11:27,160
Speaker 2: a reason. It's like a reason will be found, but

227
00:11:27,280 --> 00:11:29,000
Speaker 2: only you can find it. No one can tell you

228
00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:30,720
Speaker 2: what it is, and no one can tell you that

229
00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:33,960
Speaker 2: it's okay, Like that's only yours and maybe it takes years.

230
00:11:34,240 --> 00:11:36,480
Speaker 1: I appreciate that and the idea that there wasn't some

231
00:11:36,960 --> 00:11:41,560
Speaker 1: predetermined reason or some reason that had to be the way.

232
00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:43,720
Speaker 1: It was a journey of discovery.

233
00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:45,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think some people think that. And that's

234
00:11:45,920 --> 00:11:50,080
Speaker 2: also like a beautiful story or a beautiful you know.

235
00:11:50,240 --> 00:11:53,800
Speaker 1: What for you was actually helpful as you just talked

236
00:11:53,840 --> 00:11:56,920
Speaker 1: about the need for relationships, the need for meaning. What

237
00:11:57,080 --> 00:12:01,040
Speaker 1: was useful to hear from your relationships the time? Yeah,

238
00:12:01,080 --> 00:12:05,120
Speaker 1: and what do you find useful now? Yeah, and helpful?

239
00:12:05,320 --> 00:12:07,480
Speaker 2: This isn't about other people, actually, but this was a

240
00:12:07,520 --> 00:12:11,840
Speaker 2: really helpful thing for me. Is so, Paul got sick

241
00:12:11,840 --> 00:12:15,360
Speaker 2: and we were both doctors, and there was something in

242
00:12:15,440 --> 00:12:20,960
Speaker 2: that that was immensely helpful. And obviously like the privilege

243
00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:23,120
Speaker 2: and logistics and all of that kind of stuff that

244
00:12:23,160 --> 00:12:25,200
Speaker 2: came out of like being a healthcare person and a

245
00:12:25,240 --> 00:12:27,360
Speaker 2: doctor was very helpful. But the thing that was the

246
00:12:27,400 --> 00:12:32,280
Speaker 2: most helpful was having spent years and years taking care

247
00:12:32,320 --> 00:12:35,959
Speaker 2: of sick people and their families and thinking like, terrible

248
00:12:35,960 --> 00:12:39,560
Speaker 2: things can happen to wonderful people, whether it's like a

249
00:12:39,600 --> 00:12:43,959
Speaker 2: car crash or sudden diagnosis of cancer, and so when

250
00:12:44,040 --> 00:12:46,040
Speaker 2: he was diagnosed, like at one point I was like,

251
00:12:46,880 --> 00:12:48,959
Speaker 2: whatever you need to do to cope, go for it,

252
00:12:49,040 --> 00:12:50,680
Speaker 2: Like would you like to punch a wall? We have

253
00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:53,560
Speaker 2: all these walls, like they're all yours And he was like,

254
00:12:53,640 --> 00:12:55,200
Speaker 2: I don't need to, and I was like I don't

255
00:12:55,240 --> 00:12:58,040
Speaker 2: need to either, Like what's that about? And I think

256
00:12:58,080 --> 00:13:01,160
Speaker 2: it was kind of like Okay, turns out like it's

257
00:13:01,160 --> 00:13:04,160
Speaker 2: our turn to like be the people who are doing this.

258
00:13:04,880 --> 00:13:07,120
Speaker 2: So it was really helpful to sort of like have

259
00:13:07,160 --> 00:13:10,160
Speaker 2: that perspective. And Paul, in his writing wrote, you know

260
00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:13,640
Speaker 2: like people often ask, don't you ask why me? And

261
00:13:13,679 --> 00:13:16,880
Speaker 2: he said, well, why not me? Do you think is

262
00:13:16,920 --> 00:13:20,640
Speaker 2: really beautiful? And in terms of like what was helpful

263
00:13:20,679 --> 00:13:23,440
Speaker 2: for us in terms of coping, I felt like the

264
00:13:23,440 --> 00:13:27,120
Speaker 2: most important thing was just to feel witnessed. Actually didn't

265
00:13:27,160 --> 00:13:29,880
Speaker 2: need anyone to try to fix it, to try to

266
00:13:29,920 --> 00:13:31,720
Speaker 2: like say something that was going to fix it, or

267
00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:34,439
Speaker 2: that it was okay, Like one of the best condolence

268
00:13:34,480 --> 00:13:37,640
Speaker 2: cards I got after Paul died was it just said

269
00:13:37,880 --> 00:13:42,400
Speaker 2: this sucks really big, and I was like, oh, so amazing.

270
00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:46,200
Speaker 2: And it also wasn't like too flowery or too like

271
00:13:46,600 --> 00:13:48,480
Speaker 2: perfect or whatever. It was just like this is how

272
00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:50,760
Speaker 2: it's person feels, is definitely how I feel. Also, it's

273
00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:53,640
Speaker 2: still funny, Like even when you're dying, you're still you,

274
00:13:53,640 --> 00:13:56,400
Speaker 2: you know, like you're still funny. Like one thing that

275
00:13:56,679 --> 00:13:59,000
Speaker 2: did that was really helpful for Paul actually when he

276
00:13:59,040 --> 00:14:02,280
Speaker 2: was sick. You know, he was a thirty six and

277
00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:05,080
Speaker 2: thirty seven year old neurosurgeon, right, so he's used to

278
00:14:05,120 --> 00:14:10,439
Speaker 2: being like like healthy, dominant, in charge, in control, and

279
00:14:10,480 --> 00:14:14,160
Speaker 2: then like loses all of that in an instant. So

280
00:14:14,200 --> 00:14:16,200
Speaker 2: when people would come to visit and hang out, they'd

281
00:14:16,240 --> 00:14:17,800
Speaker 2: say like, oh, I'm coming to visit, Like what can

282
00:14:17,840 --> 00:14:20,520
Speaker 2: I do That's helpful? And I was like, just come

283
00:14:20,720 --> 00:14:24,240
Speaker 2: and hang out and like be just like be you,

284
00:14:24,640 --> 00:14:28,840
Speaker 2: like be funny, like ask Paul for career advice, you know,

285
00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:31,400
Speaker 2: if that's what you would do anyway, Like, just because

286
00:14:31,400 --> 00:14:33,160
Speaker 2: he's dying, like doesn't mean he doesn't want to know

287
00:14:33,160 --> 00:14:35,440
Speaker 2: what's going on with you. He's not like radioactive he's

288
00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:38,920
Speaker 2: not different, you know. I think illness can be so flattening.

289
00:14:39,000 --> 00:14:42,520
Speaker 2: It's like people get sick and it's like humor zips

290
00:14:42,560 --> 00:14:44,960
Speaker 2: out of the room, like sexuality zips out of the room,

291
00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:47,200
Speaker 2: and like you're just like I'm still me, Like I'm

292
00:14:47,240 --> 00:14:50,680
Speaker 2: still me, just the same and losing all of these abilities,

293
00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:53,760
Speaker 2: but I also still have all these capacities. So I

294
00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:57,120
Speaker 2: think just like making room for people's full self and

295
00:14:57,120 --> 00:14:59,920
Speaker 2: people to be like agentic and be if that's the word,

296
00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:03,080
Speaker 2: be an agent and like be a full person.

297
00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:05,880
Speaker 1: I think we all lose our powers when we love

298
00:15:05,920 --> 00:15:08,280
Speaker 1: someone and they lose someone totally. I think for a

299
00:15:08,280 --> 00:15:11,160
Speaker 1: lot of people listening and watching, I think a lot

300
00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:12,760
Speaker 1: of people become distant.

301
00:15:12,680 --> 00:15:14,640
Speaker 2: Totally because you don't really know what to do. Yeah,

302
00:15:14,680 --> 00:15:16,720
Speaker 2: And I think like showing up is half the thing.

303
00:15:17,080 --> 00:15:19,640
Speaker 2: And then also it's like I do think there's something

304
00:15:19,720 --> 00:15:22,760
Speaker 2: to like being specific, you know, like people often say

305
00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:24,360
Speaker 2: like let me know if there's any way you can help,

306
00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:27,120
Speaker 2: and you really mean it, and I've done that. But

307
00:15:27,200 --> 00:15:29,240
Speaker 2: I think when you're the sick person, it's like you

308
00:15:29,280 --> 00:15:32,680
Speaker 2: are quite overwhelmed, and so it is useful to just

309
00:15:32,720 --> 00:15:35,280
Speaker 2: like keep offering a little thing with no pressure. Like

310
00:15:35,280 --> 00:15:37,480
Speaker 2: I had some friends whose baby was in the hospital

311
00:15:37,720 --> 00:15:40,760
Speaker 2: and the husband was like the best thing anyone ever

312
00:15:40,800 --> 00:15:43,120
Speaker 2: did for us was say like I'm at them all

313
00:15:43,160 --> 00:15:45,880
Speaker 2: next door getting a burger, Like what do you want

314
00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:48,560
Speaker 2: on yours? I'll drop it off in twenty And they

315
00:15:48,560 --> 00:15:51,400
Speaker 2: were just like the works, thanks, and then like they

316
00:15:51,600 --> 00:15:53,880
Speaker 2: have to talk to the first and just like you

317
00:15:53,920 --> 00:15:55,680
Speaker 2: know that kind of stuff, Hey, like do you need

318
00:15:55,720 --> 00:15:59,080
Speaker 2: babysitting this week? Like let me know, Like I'm dropping

319
00:15:59,080 --> 00:16:01,560
Speaker 2: off food, do you want me to the doorbeller? Just

320
00:16:01,960 --> 00:16:03,800
Speaker 2: let you know, just text you when it's there, Just

321
00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:07,680
Speaker 2: like something that has no pressure but also is like

322
00:16:08,040 --> 00:16:09,400
Speaker 2: present and keep doing it.

323
00:16:09,640 --> 00:16:12,440
Speaker 1: What do you think most people misinterpret about grief?

324
00:16:13,040 --> 00:16:16,720
Speaker 2: One thing is like, oh if I say something, I'm

325
00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:19,800
Speaker 2: gonna remind her, or what if I say something then

326
00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:22,320
Speaker 2: I make her sad? And I think when you're a

327
00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:25,120
Speaker 2: grieving person, you're thinking about it all the time. It's

328
00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:27,080
Speaker 2: present for you all the time. And so I think

329
00:16:27,280 --> 00:16:30,840
Speaker 2: if somebody says like, hey, I heard what happened, I've

330
00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:34,400
Speaker 2: been thinking about you. You know, hey, I heard what happened,

331
00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:37,400
Speaker 2: Like how are you doing today? Is there anything you

332
00:16:37,400 --> 00:16:40,000
Speaker 2: can do? It doesn't remind you. It just makes you

333
00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:43,440
Speaker 2: feel seen and connected at a time when like it's

334
00:16:43,480 --> 00:16:47,360
Speaker 2: really hard to feel connected. My mom said this amazing

335
00:16:47,400 --> 00:16:49,280
Speaker 2: thing when we were growing up. She used to say,

336
00:16:49,320 --> 00:16:52,640
Speaker 2: when in doubt, describe, And it basically meant like, even

337
00:16:52,680 --> 00:16:55,880
Speaker 2: if you don't know what's happening for you, or even

338
00:16:55,880 --> 00:16:58,920
Speaker 2: if you don't know the perfect, perfect thing to say,

339
00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:01,760
Speaker 2: like you can just describe what's going on, so you

340
00:17:01,800 --> 00:17:04,520
Speaker 2: can just say, like, I heard that so and so died.

341
00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:07,400
Speaker 2: It's really sad. E've ben thinking about you so much.

342
00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:10,719
Speaker 2: I wish I knew the perfect thing to say, and

343
00:17:10,760 --> 00:17:12,840
Speaker 2: I don't, but I want you to know I love you,

344
00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:16,240
Speaker 2: And like that doesn't that sound so cozy nice? Yeah,

345
00:17:16,440 --> 00:17:18,880
Speaker 2: And it's like they didn't have to say a special, perfect,

346
00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:23,600
Speaker 2: wise thing. They just described you know. So I think

347
00:17:23,600 --> 00:17:24,640
Speaker 2: that's also really helpful.

348
00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:28,280
Speaker 1: Describing what you're going through is sometimes better than trying

349
00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:31,280
Speaker 1: to say the perfect thing or the right thing. Yeah, absolutely, Yeah,

350
00:17:31,359 --> 00:17:33,080
Speaker 1: to just be like this is the worst day ever.

351
00:17:33,240 --> 00:17:34,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, this is hard.

352
00:17:35,080 --> 00:17:37,960
Speaker 1: Yes, this is hard, Yeah, this is this is really difficult.

353
00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:41,200
Speaker 1: It's so much more, I don't know, there's something about

354
00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:45,320
Speaker 1: it that opens up the heart rather than closes it totally. Yeah,

355
00:17:45,520 --> 00:17:47,080
Speaker 1: just it's almost acceptance.

356
00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:49,280
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, yeah. Can I just come sit with you?

357
00:17:49,359 --> 00:17:51,160
Speaker 2: This looks so hard, yes, exactly.

358
00:17:51,280 --> 00:17:54,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, to admit that to ourselves, that's what we

359
00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:57,440
Speaker 1: struggled to do. What was I've It's been really interesting

360
00:17:57,680 --> 00:17:59,840
Speaker 1: as I was preparing for this interview. I've had friends.

361
00:18:00,520 --> 00:18:02,800
Speaker 1: I mean, I've lost friends to cancer over the last

362
00:18:02,840 --> 00:18:06,600
Speaker 1: few years. I've lost spiritual mentors, have lost friends and

363
00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:10,280
Speaker 1: different scenarios. But I had a friend recently who is

364
00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:14,280
Speaker 1: going through it in the States. His partner's a doctor,

365
00:18:14,359 --> 00:18:20,359
Speaker 1: but he's not. Yeah, and his partner wasn't as supportive

366
00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:24,639
Speaker 1: as he wanted them to be because to him, cancer

367
00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:27,640
Speaker 1: felt like the big sea word that was scary from

368
00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:30,000
Speaker 1: the moment he heard it. But her take was You're

369
00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:31,520
Speaker 1: going to be fine. They're going to figure it out.

370
00:18:32,320 --> 00:18:34,640
Speaker 1: And I was wondering, what were the kinds of conversations

371
00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:38,920
Speaker 1: you both had as both being doctors, and what was

372
00:18:38,960 --> 00:18:42,159
Speaker 1: the most important conversation you think you had at that time.

373
00:18:42,640 --> 00:18:47,000
Speaker 2: The way Paul got diagnosed was he'd been getting sicker

374
00:18:47,000 --> 00:18:50,399
Speaker 2: and sicker, and then he ultimately got the news that

375
00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:53,200
Speaker 2: he had a chest X ray that essentially looked like

376
00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:55,240
Speaker 2: a cloudy sky. I mean, it was like den sw

377
00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:57,520
Speaker 2: with tumors. We both knew what it meant. You know,

378
00:18:57,600 --> 00:18:59,920
Speaker 2: we're going to the hospital tomorrow for a CT scan

379
00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:04,359
Speaker 2: and it's going to show, you know, metastatic cancer. And

380
00:19:04,400 --> 00:19:07,840
Speaker 2: it was so interesting because as we were packing for

381
00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:09,680
Speaker 2: this hospital stay, he was going to go and get

382
00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:13,119
Speaker 2: expedited work up. I was packing like practical things like

383
00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:16,399
Speaker 2: phone charge or insurance card, like fuzzy socks or whatever.

384
00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:20,840
Speaker 2: And he packed books. It was so interesting. He packed

385
00:19:21,359 --> 00:19:25,359
Speaker 2: Being in Time by Heidegger and Mere Christianity by C. S. Lewis,

386
00:19:25,800 --> 00:19:29,280
Speaker 2: and then a novel called Cancer Ward by Sulsan Nitsen.

387
00:19:30,320 --> 00:19:33,720
Speaker 2: And it was this sort of like immediate recognition of

388
00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:37,399
Speaker 2: like the doctor stuff is not going to help me,

389
00:19:37,600 --> 00:19:41,360
Speaker 2: Like I need to turn to words and literature and

390
00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:44,040
Speaker 2: we just need to turn to like the human experience

391
00:19:44,040 --> 00:19:46,640
Speaker 2: of this. And for him that was like, oh, I'm

392
00:19:46,640 --> 00:19:49,720
Speaker 2: back to literature. So that was really interesting. I think

393
00:19:49,760 --> 00:19:52,920
Speaker 2: one of the most important conversations was right away, which

394
00:19:53,080 --> 00:19:55,880
Speaker 2: was we ended up looking at the CT scan ourselves

395
00:19:55,960 --> 00:19:59,439
Speaker 2: and sort of like wordlessly absorbing this diagnosis of like

396
00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:01,840
Speaker 2: he was like looking at a patient scan and then

397
00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:03,840
Speaker 2: you're like, oh my gosh, it's you, like it's you.

398
00:20:04,800 --> 00:20:07,600
Speaker 2: And then we like got into the hospital bed together

399
00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:13,080
Speaker 2: and then he said I want you to remarry before

400
00:20:13,119 --> 00:20:18,240
Speaker 2: we almost talked about anything, which was really beautiful, like

401
00:20:18,359 --> 00:20:22,960
Speaker 2: beautiful and felt so sort of like shocking at the time.

402
00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:25,040
Speaker 2: But then there's like all these layers to that, Like

403
00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:29,679
Speaker 2: the biggest one is like I love you into a

404
00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:32,960
Speaker 2: future where I will not be there. Like that's amazing.

405
00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:36,040
Speaker 2: That's such like an amazing kind of love. And people

406
00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:37,840
Speaker 2: have it, right, people have it for their children, and

407
00:20:37,920 --> 00:20:40,160
Speaker 2: people have it for their spell. It's like I love

408
00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:44,960
Speaker 2: you forever, independent of my existence, right, But he also

409
00:20:45,200 --> 00:20:49,000
Speaker 2: was saying with that sentence like it was so stark

410
00:20:49,080 --> 00:20:51,280
Speaker 2: that it was kind of like Okay, I'm gonna go

411
00:20:51,320 --> 00:20:55,720
Speaker 2: I'm gonna go there immediately and then implicitly tell you

412
00:20:55,960 --> 00:20:59,920
Speaker 2: like we can talk about anything. And that was really helpful,

413
00:21:00,080 --> 00:21:04,040
Speaker 2: like super super helpful. And I think like the battle

414
00:21:04,119 --> 00:21:08,000
Speaker 2: metaphor for cancer is so pervasive, like it started with

415
00:21:08,080 --> 00:21:10,560
Speaker 2: like Nixon's War on cancer, but then now it extends

416
00:21:10,560 --> 00:21:14,000
Speaker 2: to like individual level like we'll beat it, we'll fight it,

417
00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:18,200
Speaker 2: we're gonna win, yeah, surviving, And I think that metaphor

418
00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:21,719
Speaker 2: is so flimsy, you know, interesting, Like it's sort of

419
00:21:21,720 --> 00:21:24,160
Speaker 2: like there's winners and losers and there's like one thing

420
00:21:24,160 --> 00:21:26,359
Speaker 2: you're supposed to do here, and it's just like survive

421
00:21:26,560 --> 00:21:29,119
Speaker 2: at all costs. And I think there's like when you

422
00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:31,960
Speaker 2: survey people with cancer, there's like so many things people

423
00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:35,359
Speaker 2: hope for. It's like people hope for dignity, people hope

424
00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:38,720
Speaker 2: for like functionality as long as possible. People hope that

425
00:21:38,760 --> 00:21:41,560
Speaker 2: their loved ones will be okay. I don't know. There

426
00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:46,159
Speaker 2: was sort of just like this panoply of hopes that

427
00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:49,560
Speaker 2: I think like we knew to like sidestep the battle metaphor,

428
00:21:49,600 --> 00:21:51,720
Speaker 2: which was really helpful. And I think part of that

429
00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:54,040
Speaker 2: was just we knew how sick he was. We couldn't

430
00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:57,520
Speaker 2: get away from it. We could not escape like understanding

431
00:21:57,560 --> 00:22:00,000
Speaker 2: how sick he was, which was like the worst part,

432
00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:02,800
Speaker 2: but in some ways the best part, because then we

433
00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:03,760
Speaker 2: could decide what to do.

434
00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:23,920
Speaker 1: What I'm hearing you say is that it's it wasn't

435
00:22:24,160 --> 00:22:27,560
Speaker 1: the doctor conversation or the medical conversation, because that was

436
00:22:27,600 --> 00:22:30,119
Speaker 1: almost accepting what was in front of you. Yeah, but

437
00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:32,320
Speaker 1: it was the conversations that you both allowed each other

438
00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:34,760
Speaker 1: to have beyond the knowledge that you both were.

439
00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:37,320
Speaker 2: Well luckily and at the same time, like I made

440
00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:40,680
Speaker 2: it sound easy, and it like totally it was so

441
00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:45,000
Speaker 2: so painful and like so confusing and just so like

442
00:22:45,119 --> 00:22:48,120
Speaker 2: it took months months for us to like even feel

443
00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:49,639
Speaker 2: like we had our feet on the ground, you know,

444
00:22:50,119 --> 00:22:53,040
Speaker 2: and then things are like it's a constantly shifting landscape,

445
00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:53,440
Speaker 2: you know.

446
00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:57,200
Speaker 1: And he's going through his emotions, you're going through yours, Like, yeah,

447
00:22:57,200 --> 00:23:01,560
Speaker 1: I can't imagine that they align every day when I

448
00:23:01,600 --> 00:23:03,960
Speaker 1: wonder about just the work that you're doing as well,

449
00:23:04,000 --> 00:23:06,520
Speaker 1: and as we kind of navigate this conversation, I'm like,

450
00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:10,240
Speaker 1: I know that in my life, when I lose someone

451
00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:13,200
Speaker 1: i'm close to, especially when they're around the same age,

452
00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:19,119
Speaker 1: there's something different than when I lose someone older, because

453
00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:21,760
Speaker 1: at least when someone's older or add an aide that

454
00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:27,040
Speaker 1: feels appropriate for loss, there's that story that you can

455
00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:30,200
Speaker 1: tell yourself. Whereas I lost one of my monk friends,

456
00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:32,560
Speaker 1: he was still a monk when he passed away. We

457
00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:36,199
Speaker 1: lived in the monastery together, but he passed away a

458
00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:38,760
Speaker 1: few years back now, and he died of stage four

459
00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:41,640
Speaker 1: colon cancer. Yeah, and he was like maybe two years

460
00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:45,600
Speaker 1: older than me. Yeah, And I remember watching him through

461
00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:48,040
Speaker 1: the whole journey present with him, talking to him on

462
00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:49,880
Speaker 1: the phone, seeing him when I could, when I went

463
00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:54,560
Speaker 1: back and visited him, And I almost feel like I

464
00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:58,320
Speaker 1: learned so much more from him about life than I've

465
00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:01,439
Speaker 1: ever taught or known. And I wanted to know, Like

466
00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:04,119
Speaker 1: what did being so close to death teach you about

467
00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:05,000
Speaker 1: life and living?

468
00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:09,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's hard to separate actually, like being so close

469
00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:14,280
Speaker 2: to death and being so close to Paul, because it

470
00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:17,560
Speaker 2: was like so embodied, you know, and it's funny. It's

471
00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:20,240
Speaker 2: like you're talking about your friend dying and like what

472
00:24:20,320 --> 00:24:23,360
Speaker 2: a surprise that is when someone young dies, And it's

473
00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:26,000
Speaker 2: like the way I've ended up, like conceiving of it

474
00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:28,399
Speaker 2: is sort of like turns out that's what was going

475
00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:30,919
Speaker 2: to happen. Like that helps me a lot. Actually, I

476
00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:35,640
Speaker 2: think like being so close to someone who's dying actually

477
00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:40,680
Speaker 2: taught me something about dying, which is that until you die,

478
00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:44,280
Speaker 2: you're alive, you know. Like what happened for Paul was

479
00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:48,360
Speaker 2: like he got he was a neurosurgeon, got diagnosed with cancer,

480
00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:50,639
Speaker 2: worked for a year as a neurosurgeon, Like this is

481
00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:53,120
Speaker 2: who I am, This is what I care about. Then

482
00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:57,120
Speaker 2: I got pregnant during that year on purpose. Then he

483
00:24:57,200 --> 00:25:01,280
Speaker 2: had sort of serendipitously and because he was a beautiful writer,

484
00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:05,840
Speaker 2: transitioned to writing first essays and then a memoir, and

485
00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:09,200
Speaker 2: so he sort of like built a new vocation during

486
00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:11,439
Speaker 2: the time that he was sick. And it's like he

487
00:25:11,600 --> 00:25:18,000
Speaker 2: was so sick and so like debilitated and still like

488
00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:22,160
Speaker 2: physically still and like wan, you know, he was ill,

489
00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:27,159
Speaker 2: and at the same time he was so like engaged

490
00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:29,199
Speaker 2: in what he was doing, like so just sort of

491
00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:33,199
Speaker 2: like intellectually engaged in the world of ideas and in

492
00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:35,639
Speaker 2: the world of relationships too, like being a new dad,

493
00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:40,400
Speaker 2: and it was just really interesting to see. Like one

494
00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:43,520
Speaker 2: of the book reviews of Paul's book was by this

495
00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:46,000
Speaker 2: doctor named Gavin Francis, and he wrote like this book

496
00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:49,959
Speaker 2: is unforgettable or this book is something it is crackling

497
00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:52,600
Speaker 2: with life. And I just remember thinking, like, oh, how

498
00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:56,600
Speaker 2: amazing to be crackling with life when you're dying. And

499
00:25:56,680 --> 00:25:58,399
Speaker 2: I think the same thing is true with aging, the

500
00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:00,919
Speaker 2: same thing is true with like disability to your patienthood.

501
00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:04,760
Speaker 2: It's like there's this idea that like you know something

502
00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:07,560
Speaker 2: about like a human identity is taken from you when

503
00:26:07,600 --> 00:26:10,240
Speaker 2: you're aging. But it's like some of my favorite people

504
00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:13,120
Speaker 2: are little old ladies who are so giggly and hilarious

505
00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:15,840
Speaker 2: and like not afraid of anything, you know, and like

506
00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:18,320
Speaker 2: I used to think like little old lady and now

507
00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:22,160
Speaker 2: I think like, gosh, like Spitfire, who like knows everything

508
00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:25,960
Speaker 2: and like, you know, nothing shocks her. And so I

509
00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:28,199
Speaker 2: think the thing it taught me also as a doctor,

510
00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:33,040
Speaker 2: you know, like just how totally human like everyone is,

511
00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:34,560
Speaker 2: you know, And I think when you're at work as

512
00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:38,200
Speaker 2: a doctor, there's so much dehumanization. It's like you're at work,

513
00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:39,639
Speaker 2: you're rushing aroun you're hungry, you have to go to

514
00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:41,359
Speaker 2: the bathroom, you have to get to the oar and

515
00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:43,840
Speaker 2: so it's like all of the families like sleeping on

516
00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:47,919
Speaker 2: the sofas outside the ICU are sort of the furniture,

517
00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:50,720
Speaker 2: like they're the furniture at work because you're doing your job.

518
00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:54,359
Speaker 2: But also it's like you're constantly toggling between like this

519
00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:57,639
Speaker 2: is the worst day of this person's life and I

520
00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:00,320
Speaker 2: have thirty six minutes with them and then answer to

521
00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:03,720
Speaker 2: your question for real about like what can dying teach

522
00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:07,720
Speaker 2: us about being alive and living. Dying is like the

523
00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:10,560
Speaker 2: one of the most human things we do. It's like

524
00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:13,040
Speaker 2: it's too big for any model. It's too big for

525
00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:14,679
Speaker 2: a medical model, it's too big for like a lot

526
00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:18,199
Speaker 2: of religious models. It's not a medical event. It's like

527
00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:22,480
Speaker 2: a human thing. Frank Ostasski, he's like a Buddhist teacher

528
00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:25,400
Speaker 2: who found it Zen Hospice in San Francisco's so gorgeous.

529
00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:28,320
Speaker 2: He's so beautiful, and like he talks about how dying

530
00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:33,200
Speaker 2: is all about relationships, so interesting. It's like your relationship

531
00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:36,800
Speaker 2: to yourself, your relationship to people you love, your relationship

532
00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:39,280
Speaker 2: to like holiness, whatever that would be. He's like, it

533
00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:43,919
Speaker 2: explodes every kind of relationship. And then Ira BioC who's

534
00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:48,679
Speaker 2: this like really beautiful doctor here, actually talks about like

535
00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:51,399
Speaker 2: having worked with a lot of people who are dying,

536
00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:53,520
Speaker 2: and then like, you know, what they have to teach

537
00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:55,280
Speaker 2: to people who are living. And he's like it's two

538
00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:58,439
Speaker 2: big questions that he uncovers. He says, what would be

539
00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:02,720
Speaker 2: left undone are unsaid if I died now, you know,

540
00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:04,720
Speaker 2: like how can I live most fully in the time

541
00:28:04,760 --> 00:28:05,359
Speaker 2: I have left?

542
00:28:05,640 --> 00:28:05,879
Speaker 1: You know?

543
00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:09,880
Speaker 2: And I think there is sort of a like transcendence

544
00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:13,120
Speaker 2: and just like death is not like something that happens

545
00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:14,719
Speaker 2: like at the end of the road. It's like it

546
00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:17,640
Speaker 2: is here all the time. It is something you can

547
00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:21,760
Speaker 2: like tap into like finitude or transcendence. Like even like

548
00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:24,439
Speaker 2: a traffic jam and you're just like roadreach, I'm going

549
00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:26,320
Speaker 2: where I'm going. I hate these people, they're in my way.

550
00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:29,800
Speaker 2: Like it's like no, like you are the people, you

551
00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:34,560
Speaker 2: are the traffic. Everyone in this traffic jam like was

552
00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:38,280
Speaker 2: a tiny baby like will be on a deathbed, has

553
00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:40,840
Speaker 2: someone who loves them, who will be like bereft when

554
00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:44,400
Speaker 2: they're gone, like God willing right, and so like suddenly

555
00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:47,320
Speaker 2: zooming out to that, you're like who cares about the traffic?

556
00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:51,400
Speaker 2: Everything's beautiful? So I don't know. I think there's like

557
00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:56,080
Speaker 2: a real like luminosity that can be found like when

558
00:28:56,120 --> 00:28:59,560
Speaker 2: someone's dying, and then at the same time, like traffic

559
00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:02,680
Speaker 2: jams suck and like yeah, you know, when someone's dying,

560
00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:04,920
Speaker 2: you also have to like make dinner and you know,

561
00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:08,080
Speaker 2: pick up the prescription. But I think it's like a

562
00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:12,160
Speaker 2: constant toggle between like zooming and zoom and transcendence, you know,

563
00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:14,480
Speaker 2: which is like hopefully what we can all do, like

564
00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:15,240
Speaker 2: every day.

565
00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:18,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's zooming and zoom yeah, as you said,

566
00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:20,520
Speaker 1: yeah yeah, For a few months now, my team and

567
00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:23,840
Speaker 1: I've been creating these zoomed out versions when you were

568
00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:30,040
Speaker 1: describing that of almost like city crosswalks, parks, yeah, and

569
00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:34,400
Speaker 1: and we just replace these little thoughts on what everyone's

570
00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:37,720
Speaker 1: going through what and and people are like moving around

571
00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:39,520
Speaker 1: in the park or sometimes.

572
00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:41,040
Speaker 2: It's you like a scribe, like a story.

573
00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:41,600
Speaker 1: Correct.

574
00:29:41,640 --> 00:29:42,720
Speaker 2: I play that game with my kids.

575
00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:45,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, oh, tell me about that.

576
00:29:45,560 --> 00:29:47,160
Speaker 2: We just play that like at dinner and stuff. We're

577
00:29:47,200 --> 00:29:49,720
Speaker 2: out to dinner, we're talking about yeah, yeah, we'll be

578
00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:52,120
Speaker 2: like what are you talking about? And then you'll be like, oh,

579
00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:54,320
Speaker 2: this person just walk by, like his dog's name. Sometimes

580
00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:56,640
Speaker 2: it's just sort of like silly, it's like his dog's

581
00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:59,240
Speaker 2: name is Peanut, and just make it up. But sometimes

582
00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:02,160
Speaker 2: it's like, oh, like do you think he's just gone

583
00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:04,960
Speaker 2: through a breakup? Like look at his face? Ah, Like

584
00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:06,719
Speaker 2: just we just sort of make it up, like as

585
00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:08,920
Speaker 2: a way to pass the time. But it is sort

586
00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:09,800
Speaker 2: of like an empathy game.

587
00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:13,080
Speaker 1: Absolutely. Yeah. So we're doing exactly the same thing except

588
00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:16,640
Speaker 1: creating it on social media and sharing them as stories

589
00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:19,240
Speaker 1: for people to zoom out a little bit, and so

590
00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:21,640
Speaker 1: we'll take different scenes, whether it's an airport or whether

591
00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:23,960
Speaker 1: it's a park, or whether it's a crosswalk, and we'll

592
00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:25,760
Speaker 1: have lots of people walking around, and we'll just put

593
00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:29,720
Speaker 1: little stories on top of them. I love thinking that

594
00:30:29,800 --> 00:30:32,840
Speaker 1: way because I always know that if I cut someone

595
00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:34,960
Speaker 1: off in traffic, I feel I have a good reason.

596
00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:36,280
Speaker 1: Sure if someone cuts me.

597
00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:39,200
Speaker 2: Off, they're an asshole.

598
00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:40,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly.

599
00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:42,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, so what are you trying to show? Are you

600
00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:45,000
Speaker 2: just trying to show like everyone has like a rich

601
00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:46,240
Speaker 2: life as rich as yours.

602
00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:49,959
Speaker 1: Yeah, and we're not alone in our suffering. Yes, so

603
00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:53,040
Speaker 1: you may feel like you're suffering right now, You're definitely

604
00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:57,000
Speaker 1: not alone, right that everyone you meet may simply be

605
00:30:57,080 --> 00:30:59,640
Speaker 1: projecting their own suffering onto you, and it is in

606
00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:03,120
Speaker 1: a election of who you are totally, and everyone has

607
00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:03,960
Speaker 1: a story.

608
00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:04,520
Speaker 2: Everyone has a thing.

609
00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:08,280
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, and so just trying to help us I

610
00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:11,440
Speaker 1: guess transcend. But then I like your version of it's

611
00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:15,360
Speaker 1: still bullshit transfit, So I need to make one of that.

612
00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:17,480
Speaker 1: I think we need to end it with that. I

613
00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:19,560
Speaker 1: think you it's so cool.

614
00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:20,320
Speaker 2: Can't wait to see that.

615
00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:23,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, as you're saying it, was just it's

616
00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:26,320
Speaker 1: helpful to hearing it from you as you're answering these questions.

617
00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:30,400
Speaker 1: I'm so honestly like it's stirring so much within me

618
00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:34,440
Speaker 1: because when you sit down with someone who's really done

619
00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:36,800
Speaker 1: the work and really had to work through grief and

620
00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:40,000
Speaker 1: really had to think through this loss on such a

621
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:46,920
Speaker 1: personal level, your answers are beyond any logic in a

622
00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:51,880
Speaker 1: beautiful ways and their counterintuitive almost, and that's what's so

623
00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:54,720
Speaker 1: helpful and refreshing.

624
00:31:54,800 --> 00:31:56,600
Speaker 2: And yeah, you know, it's so weird though it was

625
00:31:56,680 --> 00:31:59,640
Speaker 2: like partly it helps you and then partly it doesn't,

626
00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:02,640
Speaker 2: because like the next thing that comes is also really hard.

627
00:32:02,800 --> 00:32:06,920
Speaker 2: Like sometimes I think that about talking about Paul and

628
00:32:07,040 --> 00:32:10,560
Speaker 2: like going through that experience, Like Paul's memoir came out

629
00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:13,360
Speaker 2: a little under a year after he died, and then

630
00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:16,040
Speaker 2: I immediately went on a book tour, like an unexpected

631
00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:20,280
Speaker 2: book tour, and was like processing in real time, like

632
00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:24,440
Speaker 2: what had happened really just like aching through grief and

633
00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:28,840
Speaker 2: describing it. And now I'm describing like I went through

634
00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:30,720
Speaker 2: this process and what came out of it, which is

635
00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:33,920
Speaker 2: like a wonderful thing. But then like the things that

636
00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:35,840
Speaker 2: are happening for me, like I talked to somebody the

637
00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:38,440
Speaker 2: other day actually who said this, who said like, oh,

638
00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:41,440
Speaker 2: I'm raising this like challenging teenager, and it's the hardest

639
00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:44,640
Speaker 2: thing I've ever done. And then she was like, well,

640
00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:46,920
Speaker 2: I told a friend that, and the friend said, wait

641
00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:50,760
Speaker 2: a second, Like twelve years ago, your wife had cancer

642
00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:53,120
Speaker 2: and you had young children. Isn't that the hardest thing

643
00:32:53,120 --> 00:32:54,800
Speaker 2: you've ever done? And she was like, oh, it is.

644
00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:58,560
Speaker 2: It definitely is. But right now this feels like the

645
00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:01,720
Speaker 2: hardest thing, like it's the new hardest thing. Yeah, you know,

646
00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:03,440
Speaker 2: But at the same time, I think you end up

647
00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:06,040
Speaker 2: realizing like, Okay, I've done a hard thing before, you know.

648
00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:10,000
Speaker 2: Like Jane Fond on Julia Louis Dreyfus's podcast, she was like,

649
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:13,560
Speaker 2: people always say that being old is hard, and she's like, no,

650
00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:16,560
Speaker 2: being young is hard. She's like, being old is amazing,

651
00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:19,520
Speaker 2: Like you've been through so many things. You know you

652
00:33:19,560 --> 00:33:22,400
Speaker 2: can do it. And I was like, that's awesome.

653
00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:25,640
Speaker 1: If we're able to pull from that well, yeah, of

654
00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:29,400
Speaker 1: experience and tragedy, and if we're able to look at

655
00:33:29,400 --> 00:33:31,600
Speaker 1: it and go Because I think I think I think

656
00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:35,720
Speaker 1: humans don't give themselves enough credit for how much they've survived. Same. Yeah,

657
00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:38,400
Speaker 1: we don't give ourselves enough credit because we don't. We

658
00:33:38,440 --> 00:33:40,480
Speaker 1: don't look back at that moment and think we were strong.

659
00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:42,040
Speaker 1: We look back at it and think we were weak.

660
00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:44,200
Speaker 2: That's so interesting that we just went I was a

661
00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:46,480
Speaker 2: stupid teenager. And then you're like, no, you had to

662
00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:46,880
Speaker 2: learn that.

663
00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:49,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, no. The way to learn that exactly like

664
00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:51,920
Speaker 1: owning that is what gives you what I think what

665
00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:54,880
Speaker 1: you're sharing, which is, oh, I can look back and think, wow,

666
00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:57,880
Speaker 1: I got through the heart and I can relate to that.

667
00:33:57,880 --> 00:33:59,400
Speaker 1: I mean, I remember talking to my mom one So

668
00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:01,800
Speaker 1: my mom is not someone who gives me motivational advice

669
00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:05,000
Speaker 1: or gives me wisdom. She's loving and caring, but not

670
00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:10,719
Speaker 1: a wise sage in her words. And I remember I

671
00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:13,319
Speaker 1: was going through my most difficult fight yet at a

672
00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:16,879
Speaker 1: certain point in my life around nine years ago, and

673
00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:18,919
Speaker 1: I was talking to my mom and she was asking

674
00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:20,640
Speaker 1: me how I was and what I ate for dinner,

675
00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:23,560
Speaker 1: which it was usually our conversation, and I just said

676
00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:25,239
Speaker 1: to her, was like, yeah, you know, I'm doing alright.

677
00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:26,840
Speaker 1: I'm just stressed out doing a bit, you know. And

678
00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:30,000
Speaker 1: I would say that in a passing way, and she said,

679
00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:34,719
Speaker 1: you're good at dealing with stress. And I was like, ah, like,

680
00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:35,640
Speaker 1: my mom doesn't.

681
00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:36,560
Speaker 2: Just say it was so helpful.

682
00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:39,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I said, what do you mean and she said, well,

683
00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:41,520
Speaker 1: when you were in my womb, you went through a

684
00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:42,120
Speaker 1: lot of stress.

685
00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:43,960
Speaker 2: That's so beautiful.

686
00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:47,480
Speaker 1: And it was like, oh my gosh, it gave me

687
00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:51,360
Speaker 1: so gift, so much. It's still what I turned to

688
00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:56,160
Speaker 1: when I need strength. Oh my god, and it broke

689
00:34:56,200 --> 00:34:57,840
Speaker 1: through the challenge I had at that time, like it

690
00:34:57,880 --> 00:35:00,680
Speaker 1: gave me all the results and conviction because my mum

691
00:35:00,920 --> 00:35:04,120
Speaker 1: just reminded me that, well, that's so beautiful. It was unbelievable.

692
00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:07,200
Speaker 2: It's amazing too, because she's saying like that's such an

693
00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:09,720
Speaker 2: embodied thing, because like, oh my gosh, I'm gonna cry,

694
00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:13,200
Speaker 2: because like she's telling you like you're the fact that

695
00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:15,960
Speaker 2: you were in a fetus right, Like she's telling you

696
00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:19,239
Speaker 2: like your body already knows how to do this, Like

697
00:35:19,320 --> 00:35:23,120
Speaker 2: your body did this before you like could even before

698
00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:24,280
Speaker 2: when you were pre verbal.

699
00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:25,480
Speaker 1: Yeah.

700
00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:28,680
Speaker 2: Wow, what a like amazing form of trust she gave

701
00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:29,480
Speaker 2: you and yourself.

702
00:35:29,719 --> 00:35:32,040
Speaker 1: I've been thinking a lot about this idea of the

703
00:35:32,120 --> 00:35:34,799
Speaker 1: stories of your parents and the stories of your ancestors.

704
00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:38,360
Speaker 1: And when I think about the stories of my parents,

705
00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:40,879
Speaker 1: which I learned early on, but not in as much

706
00:35:40,920 --> 00:35:43,839
Speaker 1: detail as I wished. I just heard about how much

707
00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:46,520
Speaker 1: they went through. And I was thinking about this with Katie.

708
00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:49,000
Speaker 1: Is where I'm going with Yeah, And it's almost like

709
00:35:49,120 --> 00:35:51,040
Speaker 1: I didn't live that with them. I didn't live in

710
00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:52,840
Speaker 1: those homes they grew up in. My dad grew up

711
00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:55,360
Speaker 1: in the slums in India, my mom grew up in

712
00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:59,440
Speaker 1: a war torn country. They both moved to England, you know,

713
00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:02,080
Speaker 1: and they got married. And when I think about that,

714
00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:05,239
Speaker 1: I'm like, Wow, that is that's so difficult, Like my

715
00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:08,240
Speaker 1: parents did something really hard. Yes, my mom was studying

716
00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:10,960
Speaker 1: for her exams when she had soldiers on her rooftop.

717
00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:11,200
Speaker 2: Wow.

718
00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:17,200
Speaker 1: And my dad shared a bathroom with like twenty five families. Yeah,

719
00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:20,040
Speaker 1: And when I think about it, thank God, that is insane.

720
00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:21,480
Speaker 1: And then when you think and you're like, but I

721
00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:24,480
Speaker 1: come from that, sure, Like like I come from that,

722
00:36:24,560 --> 00:36:27,440
Speaker 1: and like what Yeah, And so I wonder when like

723
00:36:27,760 --> 00:36:30,720
Speaker 1: for Katie, who, yeah, as we were talking about earlier,

724
00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:34,640
Speaker 1: like doesn't necessarily know her father, but how do you

725
00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:40,279
Speaker 1: think about creating that experience for her in helping her

726
00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:41,640
Speaker 1: make sense of it.

727
00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:43,720
Speaker 2: It's interesting that you're saying this thing about your parents,

728
00:36:43,800 --> 00:36:46,319
Speaker 2: because like the hardest thing is when your parents lay

729
00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:48,400
Speaker 2: it out for you, right, Like you do need to

730
00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:52,880
Speaker 2: sort of absorb it yourself. You know, I did, and

731
00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:56,680
Speaker 2: you're like, okay, but like it's so beautiful that you

732
00:36:56,920 --> 00:37:00,359
Speaker 2: really absorbed it. So it's like, I guess I hope

733
00:37:00,440 --> 00:37:03,200
Speaker 2: Katie will do that, you know, from reading Paul's book

734
00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:07,160
Speaker 2: or from like watching me and you know, being me,

735
00:37:08,600 --> 00:37:10,879
Speaker 2: whatever she takes from that. But I think I think

736
00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:18,000
Speaker 2: so much about how to give her sort of like spaciousness,

737
00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:20,920
Speaker 2: like support and spaciousness to like figure out what it

738
00:37:20,920 --> 00:37:25,800
Speaker 2: all means to her, you know, because she's her own person.

739
00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:29,040
Speaker 2: Her childhood is very different from mine in this other way, right,

740
00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:33,200
Speaker 2: Like she has the hardship of losing a parent I didn't.

741
00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:37,560
Speaker 2: She's like decidedly not Paul. She's decidedly not me. She's

742
00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:42,400
Speaker 2: very specific. I think none of us honestly like comes

743
00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:46,360
Speaker 2: to appreciate that our parents are like full human beings.

744
00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:49,360
Speaker 2: Like I remember in my twenties being like, wait a second,

745
00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:53,960
Speaker 2: my dad is not a professional dad. He's like a dude.

746
00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:57,799
Speaker 2: He's just a dude. Like that explains so much, Like

747
00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:00,000
Speaker 2: that explains so much in a really like gorgeous way.

748
00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:02,640
Speaker 2: You know, he's like someone who's just amazingly doing his best.

749
00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:07,799
Speaker 2: Katie has fewer like signposts to know who Paul was,

750
00:38:08,719 --> 00:38:11,319
Speaker 2: but she has this book to read, and the book

751
00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:16,400
Speaker 2: essentially says like it's important to try hard, it's important

752
00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:19,640
Speaker 2: to do your best, and I love you like he's

753
00:38:19,719 --> 00:38:22,240
Speaker 2: you know, Paul wrote so much about striving and about

754
00:38:22,239 --> 00:38:25,520
Speaker 2: struggling to find meaning and about you know, like about

755
00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:29,319
Speaker 2: facing death squarely. And then at the end, he like

756
00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:31,919
Speaker 2: stops and he's writing in the second person to her

757
00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:34,040
Speaker 2: and like writes a message to her, and that's the

758
00:38:34,120 --> 00:38:37,920
Speaker 2: last piece that he puts for her. As I'm raising Katie,

759
00:38:38,560 --> 00:38:42,840
Speaker 2: I try to have her sort of taken like random

760
00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:46,759
Speaker 2: information about Paul, like just truly random, Like you love

761
00:38:46,840 --> 00:38:49,040
Speaker 2: taking a hot shower. I hate a hot shower. I

762
00:38:49,080 --> 00:38:52,479
Speaker 2: get in and out like you and Daddy like love

763
00:38:52,520 --> 00:38:55,359
Speaker 2: a hot shower. He loved a hot shower. You take

764
00:38:55,400 --> 00:38:58,960
Speaker 2: the hour power share shower, just like Daddy. So that's

765
00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:00,839
Speaker 2: just like a random thing that you would know if

766
00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:03,879
Speaker 2: you were like growing up like next to someone. Right,

767
00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:06,000
Speaker 2: So I try to give her those kinds of things

768
00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:08,640
Speaker 2: instead of just like your dad died and he was

769
00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:10,279
Speaker 2: so wonderful and he left you. It's like I try

770
00:39:10,320 --> 00:39:13,040
Speaker 2: to give her like sort of specifics that are like

771
00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:16,520
Speaker 2: neither here nor there, but they're like they like create

772
00:39:16,560 --> 00:39:20,239
Speaker 2: a tapestry. Yes, she like sees his brothers, who are

773
00:39:20,280 --> 00:39:23,160
Speaker 2: like really funny and amazing and sort of like just

774
00:39:23,239 --> 00:39:25,960
Speaker 2: funny in the way that he was. And then I

775
00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:28,120
Speaker 2: don't know what her interaction will be with Paul's book,

776
00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:30,759
Speaker 2: Like it's all over our house. It's like you all over,

777
00:39:30,840 --> 00:39:33,240
Speaker 2: but like we five copies and they're on different bookshelves

778
00:39:33,280 --> 00:39:35,319
Speaker 2: and they're around, and I don't know when she's going

779
00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:36,640
Speaker 2: to pick it up. I don't know what she's going

780
00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:38,080
Speaker 2: to take. I don't know if he's going to feel

781
00:39:38,120 --> 00:39:41,279
Speaker 2: really close, if he's gonna feel really far, or if

782
00:39:41,280 --> 00:39:43,120
Speaker 2: she's going to say, like I'm not interested in this,

783
00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:44,759
Speaker 2: or if she's going to be thirty and produce a

784
00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:48,880
Speaker 2: movie out adaptation, Like I have no no idea, but

785
00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:52,080
Speaker 2: I hope that she'll find some way that helps her,

786
00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:55,400
Speaker 2: like you did understand like where she came from and

787
00:39:56,000 --> 00:39:58,480
Speaker 2: that she was loved and yeah, she came from this,

788
00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:01,239
Speaker 2: like that's really beautiful to HER's say that I came

789
00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:03,960
Speaker 2: from that. Yeah, so I have no idea.

790
00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:06,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, no, of course you don't. But I appreciate

791
00:40:06,600 --> 00:40:11,319
Speaker 1: how you incorporate the story, the tapestry, the natural, the

792
00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:15,040
Speaker 1: real of what an experience is and and they're not heavy.

793
00:40:15,120 --> 00:40:20,919
Speaker 1: Also the version that's digestible and inhales. Yeah yeah, without yeah, yeah.

794
00:40:22,600 --> 00:40:25,279
Speaker 2: Because I've done a lot of like speaking and you know,

795
00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:27,800
Speaker 2: doing this book tour and connecting with like grief groups

796
00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:29,799
Speaker 2: and just all kinds of stuff since Paul died, I've

797
00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:32,319
Speaker 2: actually asked people for advice, like if anyone here in

798
00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:34,919
Speaker 2: this audience is the kid you know who like lost

799
00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:36,719
Speaker 2: your grandparent or lost whom ever, and then you don't

800
00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:39,640
Speaker 2: know them and you're piecing it together, what advice do

801
00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:42,520
Speaker 2: you have? And like the resounding advice has been like

802
00:40:43,560 --> 00:40:47,160
Speaker 2: don't put away the pictures, don't lock it up, you know,

803
00:40:47,320 --> 00:40:51,600
Speaker 2: like let the kid sort of like have access, ask questions,

804
00:40:51,640 --> 00:40:55,040
Speaker 2: like discover it and just don't like put it away.

805
00:40:55,520 --> 00:40:58,560
Speaker 1: What was it like making that decision to have Katie

806
00:40:58,600 --> 00:41:02,840
Speaker 1: at the time and then actually go through both coming

807
00:41:02,920 --> 00:41:06,160
Speaker 1: to terms with Paul's mortality and then you know, wanting

808
00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:07,360
Speaker 1: to create life together.

809
00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:09,759
Speaker 2: Paul and I had sort of always thought like that

810
00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:12,040
Speaker 2: would be the moment when we would think about having children.

811
00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:14,719
Speaker 2: Like he was at the end of his residency. I

812
00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:17,279
Speaker 2: was in attending by then, this is when things will

813
00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:21,320
Speaker 2: like ostensibly become easier. And then right at that moment,

814
00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:25,120
Speaker 2: he's diagnosed with metastatic terminal cancer. The prognosis is like

815
00:41:25,239 --> 00:41:27,640
Speaker 2: months to a few years. But we both looked at

816
00:41:27,640 --> 00:41:29,640
Speaker 2: each other and thought like, maybe we should do this

817
00:41:29,840 --> 00:41:33,719
Speaker 2: still sort of like surprised ourselves, and he was more

818
00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:36,560
Speaker 2: certain than I was. He really really wanted to and

819
00:41:36,640 --> 00:41:40,440
Speaker 2: I needed to sort of shore up like the practicality.

820
00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:43,080
Speaker 2: So it was sort of like is the family on

821
00:41:43,160 --> 00:41:46,960
Speaker 2: board with this? Like we refinanced the mortgage, like all

822
00:41:47,000 --> 00:41:50,000
Speaker 2: of these things. It's like, can I be a solo parent?

823
00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:52,640
Speaker 2: Like that is what I'm going to be? And then

824
00:41:52,719 --> 00:41:56,360
Speaker 2: I also was honestly worried about his I was worried

825
00:41:56,400 --> 00:41:58,680
Speaker 2: about like what you said, like how to hold like

826
00:41:59,040 --> 00:42:01,399
Speaker 2: birth and death and all of it at one time.

827
00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:05,799
Speaker 2: And I asked him actually and was like, are you

828
00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:09,280
Speaker 2: are sick? And like, as you're going through this process,

829
00:42:09,920 --> 00:42:15,120
Speaker 2: don't you feel like having a child will make dying

830
00:42:15,160 --> 00:42:20,000
Speaker 2: more painful for you, And he said, he said, wouldn't

831
00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:22,520
Speaker 2: it be great if it did make it more painful,

832
00:42:23,680 --> 00:42:27,600
Speaker 2: which just like cracked the whole thing open. And I

833
00:42:27,600 --> 00:42:31,760
Speaker 2: think actually, for anybody who has a child, like nobody

834
00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:33,840
Speaker 2: is doing it because it's going to make their life easier.

835
00:42:34,040 --> 00:42:36,880
Speaker 2: There's like a million things we do that make our

836
00:42:36,920 --> 00:42:42,120
Speaker 2: lives harder, like everything everything right, Like you know, climb

837
00:42:42,200 --> 00:42:44,960
Speaker 2: a mountain all the way to the top to come

838
00:42:45,040 --> 00:42:47,680
Speaker 2: down again in the exact same day. It's like you

839
00:42:47,719 --> 00:42:50,600
Speaker 2: didn't do that because it was easy, And so I

840
00:42:50,680 --> 00:42:52,600
Speaker 2: just think, wouldn't it be great if it did? Has

841
00:42:52,680 --> 00:42:55,919
Speaker 2: changed my life so much and cracked open like not

842
00:42:56,000 --> 00:42:59,919
Speaker 2: necessarily the best one. Sometimes you cannot have joy without

843
00:43:00,200 --> 00:43:03,920
Speaker 2: risking pain or inviting pain. And for me, it was

844
00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:07,160
Speaker 2: like another layer of uncertainty. It's like pregnancy itself is

845
00:43:07,239 --> 00:43:11,600
Speaker 2: like so much uncertainty, so much fear. Then I actually,

846
00:43:11,640 --> 00:43:14,319
Speaker 2: as a new mom, had to keep reminding myself, like

847
00:43:15,160 --> 00:43:16,320
Speaker 2: you know, it's like you go in and you like

848
00:43:16,360 --> 00:43:18,520
Speaker 2: make sure the baby's still breathing, and you're like, is

849
00:43:18,520 --> 00:43:20,840
Speaker 2: everything okay? She gets a fever and it's such a panic,

850
00:43:21,400 --> 00:43:23,160
Speaker 2: and like I had to remember and be like I

851
00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:25,840
Speaker 2: am ninety nine percent certain that this person is going

852
00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:28,600
Speaker 2: to be fine. Katie, I'm ninety nine percent certain that

853
00:43:28,640 --> 00:43:31,360
Speaker 2: Paul will not be fine. Yeah, So like that is

854
00:43:31,440 --> 00:43:35,160
Speaker 2: now like where I need to hold like my energy.

855
00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:38,080
Speaker 2: So that was kind of like helpful. Like when she

856
00:43:38,160 --> 00:43:41,200
Speaker 2: was a baby, it was like it's so easy to

857
00:43:41,200 --> 00:43:43,680
Speaker 2: wish away time, you know, it's like, oh, I can't

858
00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:45,600
Speaker 2: wait till she sleeps through the night, or like what's

859
00:43:45,640 --> 00:43:48,520
Speaker 2: she going to be like when she's like eighteen, And

860
00:43:48,560 --> 00:43:50,719
Speaker 2: there was none of that. It was like, this is

861
00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:53,640
Speaker 2: like the moment that Paul will be here for is

862
00:43:53,680 --> 00:43:57,799
Speaker 2: like Katie's infant hood and like Paul's final years, and

863
00:43:57,840 --> 00:44:00,640
Speaker 2: so there was no like wishing away the moment all

864
00:44:01,280 --> 00:44:04,200
Speaker 2: present and it turns out like that's actually really good

865
00:44:04,239 --> 00:44:07,200
Speaker 2: for you. It's like the reason people like learn to

866
00:44:07,280 --> 00:44:09,920
Speaker 2: meditate or you know. Or it's like I'm washing my

867
00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:11,840
Speaker 2: hands in the sink, like this is the feeling of

868
00:44:11,880 --> 00:44:15,200
Speaker 2: the cool water. It was like that. It was like

869
00:44:15,200 --> 00:44:19,440
Speaker 2: like a baby cries, someone dies, I'm here like in

870
00:44:19,480 --> 00:44:23,120
Speaker 2: this moment, you know, and so yeah, and I still

871
00:44:23,200 --> 00:44:26,440
Speaker 2: can access that somewhat. And then I also am like,

872
00:44:26,760 --> 00:44:28,880
Speaker 2: you know, we're the pencils for seventh grade, so like,

873
00:44:29,360 --> 00:44:31,920
Speaker 2: but anyway it was, it was like beautiful and amazing

874
00:44:32,000 --> 00:44:35,120
Speaker 2: and really good that we did it and just.

875
00:44:36,120 --> 00:44:49,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, it worked out. Taught me a lot.

876
00:44:57,840 --> 00:45:02,200
Speaker 1: Were you always so? And or did this accelerate it

877
00:45:02,239 --> 00:45:04,800
Speaker 1: in a way that because when I hear you speak,

878
00:45:04,840 --> 00:45:07,760
Speaker 1: I'm just like, God, this is like a lot of growth,

879
00:45:07,880 --> 00:45:10,200
Speaker 1: a lot of in a short amount of time, a

880
00:45:10,239 --> 00:45:13,120
Speaker 1: lot of taking on a lot of different things in

881
00:45:13,160 --> 00:45:16,000
Speaker 1: a short amount of time. And it's almost like do

882
00:45:16,040 --> 00:45:18,560
Speaker 1: you feel like you were somewhat prepared for it from

883
00:45:18,560 --> 00:45:19,760
Speaker 1: somewhere in your past.

884
00:45:20,040 --> 00:45:23,600
Speaker 2: The heaviest lift for me, actually, I think in terms

885
00:45:23,640 --> 00:45:27,640
Speaker 2: of like training my brain and heart to hold a

886
00:45:27,640 --> 00:45:30,799
Speaker 2: million things actually was in medical school. I was like,

887
00:45:30,840 --> 00:45:33,400
Speaker 2: I cannot believe I'm using like every fiber of my

888
00:45:33,480 --> 00:45:37,880
Speaker 2: being to figure out like intellectually and emotionally how to

889
00:45:37,920 --> 00:45:40,759
Speaker 2: take care of sick people and a tend to like

890
00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:44,359
Speaker 2: every every layer of what's happening in this room and

891
00:45:44,400 --> 00:45:47,600
Speaker 2: then like make it ten thousand decisions about like how

892
00:45:47,600 --> 00:45:50,080
Speaker 2: to make it all happen. So that was really hard.

893
00:45:50,200 --> 00:45:52,839
Speaker 2: I also went through an episode of depression and residency

894
00:45:53,320 --> 00:45:57,040
Speaker 2: that was incredibly painful. I wasn't like hospitalized, but I

895
00:45:57,080 --> 00:46:00,080
Speaker 2: took two weeks off work and I felt like I

896
00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:01,920
Speaker 2: just felt like I didn't exist. I mean, it was depression.

897
00:46:01,960 --> 00:46:04,600
Speaker 2: It's like depression, like Andrew Solomon says about depression, like

898
00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:09,040
Speaker 2: depression is not the opposite of happiness, it's the opposite

899
00:46:09,040 --> 00:46:13,240
Speaker 2: of vitality. Just like so interesting. That was really hard,

900
00:46:13,280 --> 00:46:16,520
Speaker 2: and I think like making it through that, I don't

901
00:46:16,560 --> 00:46:18,719
Speaker 2: even think I could put into words what it like

902
00:46:19,200 --> 00:46:23,680
Speaker 2: taught me. But touching that like pain like left me

903
00:46:23,880 --> 00:46:27,160
Speaker 2: with I don't know, some sort of ability to approach

904
00:46:27,320 --> 00:46:29,920
Speaker 2: darkness or something just to be like okay, like I

905
00:46:29,960 --> 00:46:32,440
Speaker 2: don't know, I have no idea. Yeah, and then I

906
00:46:32,480 --> 00:46:34,160
Speaker 2: just have like really good friends or we're talking all

907
00:46:34,200 --> 00:46:37,319
Speaker 2: the time, like I'm a processor by talking honestly, you know.

908
00:46:37,400 --> 00:46:38,799
Speaker 2: And then at the same time, it's like I went

909
00:46:38,800 --> 00:46:41,080
Speaker 2: through this hard thing of all these ideas about like

910
00:46:41,880 --> 00:46:45,480
Speaker 2: what helps me cope, and then you go through a

911
00:46:45,520 --> 00:46:48,560
Speaker 2: breakup and you're like heartbroken, you hate everything and you

912
00:46:48,560 --> 00:46:50,719
Speaker 2: have to start again, or like you know, you have

913
00:46:50,760 --> 00:46:52,279
Speaker 2: to figure out how to explain it to a kid,

914
00:46:52,320 --> 00:46:55,640
Speaker 2: and then you know, like that's impossible or they think

915
00:46:55,680 --> 00:46:59,200
Speaker 2: you're stupid. You know, like I don't know, it's all everything,

916
00:46:59,320 --> 00:46:59,960
Speaker 2: It's all everything.

917
00:47:00,719 --> 00:47:03,520
Speaker 1: It's the transcendence and boos, yeah, you know.

918
00:47:03,760 --> 00:47:06,040
Speaker 2: This actually makes me think of this thing, Yeah, transcendence

919
00:47:06,080 --> 00:47:09,560
Speaker 2: of bullshit. Do you know this idea It came out

920
00:47:09,560 --> 00:47:13,600
Speaker 2: of Dan Gilbert at Harvard, the social psychologist, this idea

921
00:47:13,640 --> 00:47:16,000
Speaker 2: of like the end of history illusion, So like he

922
00:47:16,040 --> 00:47:18,320
Speaker 2: talks about like when you're asking this question of like

923
00:47:18,320 --> 00:47:20,239
Speaker 2: like what got you to where you are today? And

924
00:47:20,280 --> 00:47:23,000
Speaker 2: then like he interviewed a bunch of people and he said, like,

925
00:47:23,200 --> 00:47:25,040
Speaker 2: how much do you think you've changed in the past

926
00:47:25,040 --> 00:47:27,800
Speaker 2: ten years? And everyone said so much, like so much.

927
00:47:28,040 --> 00:47:29,200
Speaker 2: And they said, how much do you think you're going

928
00:47:29,239 --> 00:47:30,560
Speaker 2: to change in the next ten years? And some people

929
00:47:30,560 --> 00:47:33,600
Speaker 2: said probably not a lot. And he interviewed people every

930
00:47:33,680 --> 00:47:35,880
Speaker 2: age and there's like a little a little bit of

931
00:47:35,880 --> 00:47:39,960
Speaker 2: a slowdown like in midlife, but essentially everyone changes all

932
00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:42,880
Speaker 2: the time, everyone changes the same amount. In the ten years.

933
00:47:43,200 --> 00:47:45,880
Speaker 2: You walk around thinking it's the end of history illusion

934
00:47:46,120 --> 00:47:49,279
Speaker 2: of like I'm me, I've made a hair, I've got

935
00:47:49,280 --> 00:47:52,960
Speaker 2: it sorted. Here we go, you know, and then in

936
00:47:53,040 --> 00:47:55,399
Speaker 2: ten years you'll be like a whole different you. It's

937
00:47:55,440 --> 00:48:00,120
Speaker 2: like different sensibility, or like different frameworks, like isn't that crazy?

938
00:48:00,520 --> 00:48:02,440
Speaker 2: So I don't know, I find that really helpful. I

939
00:48:02,480 --> 00:48:03,000
Speaker 2: don't know why.

940
00:48:03,080 --> 00:48:06,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, allowing ourselves to be new and different. I mean,

941
00:48:06,400 --> 00:48:08,560
Speaker 1: it's interesting. When you first said that question, I was like, Oh,

942
00:48:08,560 --> 00:48:10,719
Speaker 1: I'd say I haven't changed much in the last ten years.

943
00:48:10,800 --> 00:48:12,640
Speaker 1: Might that would be my initial take. I feel like

944
00:48:12,640 --> 00:48:14,480
Speaker 1: I knew who I was, I'm pretty much the same person.

945
00:48:14,800 --> 00:48:17,399
Speaker 1: But I think that's not fully true. I think there's

946
00:48:17,800 --> 00:48:20,399
Speaker 1: also an end of history illusion from ten years ago. Yeah. Yeah,

947
00:48:20,400 --> 00:48:22,640
Speaker 1: that's in the sense of like I made up my

948
00:48:22,640 --> 00:48:24,759
Speaker 1: mind who I was ten years ago then and I

949
00:48:24,760 --> 00:48:28,120
Speaker 1: stopped that, and it's like, well that's not obviously true. Yeah,

950
00:48:28,160 --> 00:48:32,160
Speaker 1: that's fascinating. That's interestingly cool to play. Yeah, it's refreshing

951
00:48:32,160 --> 00:48:35,719
Speaker 1: to allow yourself to say I have changed my ability

952
00:48:35,719 --> 00:48:37,439
Speaker 1: and my values have changed, or what I care about

953
00:48:37,440 --> 00:48:38,800
Speaker 1: has changed, and then.

954
00:48:38,640 --> 00:48:40,799
Speaker 2: When a big hard thing happens, you're like, oh, it's

955
00:48:40,840 --> 00:48:41,640
Speaker 2: going to make them me.

956
00:48:42,000 --> 00:48:44,839
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah. I like Dan's works. I love

957
00:48:44,880 --> 00:48:47,040
Speaker 1: to change. That's really cool. I wanted to ask you,

958
00:48:47,080 --> 00:48:49,319
Speaker 1: as you're going back to something you said earlier, what

959
00:48:49,400 --> 00:48:51,759
Speaker 1: about Kate Katie reminds you most about Paul.

960
00:48:52,239 --> 00:48:56,160
Speaker 2: Her eyes in her hands, her stubbornness, it's like infuriating.

961
00:48:56,600 --> 00:49:01,080
Speaker 2: She very much knows her own mind, which is infuriating. Yeah,

962
00:49:01,160 --> 00:49:05,640
Speaker 2: it's like an entire parenting toolboxes are unavailable to me

963
00:49:05,680 --> 00:49:08,680
Speaker 2: because she's not a pleaser. And then she's like an

964
00:49:08,680 --> 00:49:13,279
Speaker 2: incredible physical comedian, which Paul was. Also. Those are the

965
00:49:13,320 --> 00:49:16,080
Speaker 2: things I think I would say. She's introverted, like Paul,

966
00:49:16,160 --> 00:49:20,759
Speaker 2: I processed by like speaking, like relating. Sometimes they don't

967
00:49:20,760 --> 00:49:23,000
Speaker 2: even know what I think until I've said it, and

968
00:49:23,080 --> 00:49:26,680
Speaker 2: Paul was much more like inward. I think that's like,

969
00:49:27,040 --> 00:49:29,839
Speaker 2: that's sort of like why he's like when breath becomes

970
00:49:29,840 --> 00:49:32,920
Speaker 2: arispun out of his illness, because he was like turning

971
00:49:33,040 --> 00:49:36,759
Speaker 2: and processing and reading and writing. And she's introverted like that.

972
00:49:37,400 --> 00:49:39,400
Speaker 2: But then she'll give you like, you know, like a

973
00:49:39,480 --> 00:49:42,720
Speaker 2: little gleam you know, of something she's thinking.

974
00:49:43,560 --> 00:49:46,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, as she ever asked you anything about Paul, like

975
00:49:46,480 --> 00:49:48,640
Speaker 1: from her own curiosity.

976
00:49:48,239 --> 00:49:50,400
Speaker 2: Totally, and she's actually, it's so interesting you asked that

977
00:49:50,440 --> 00:49:53,279
Speaker 2: because I was going to say, of course, and then

978
00:49:53,800 --> 00:49:56,480
Speaker 2: but it's not necessarily of course, she's just sort of

979
00:49:56,480 --> 00:50:00,880
Speaker 2: in the mix gleaning. But recently she started to she

980
00:50:00,920 --> 00:50:04,440
Speaker 2: said like, could you make me an album of videos

981
00:50:04,440 --> 00:50:07,160
Speaker 2: of Daddy? And I was like sure, And it's like

982
00:50:07,200 --> 00:50:09,320
Speaker 2: I so badly want to be like what's she watching?

983
00:50:09,320 --> 00:50:11,719
Speaker 2: When's she watching them? You know, cause she's like having

984
00:50:11,719 --> 00:50:14,240
Speaker 2: I bad time. But like there's a bunch of videos.

985
00:50:14,280 --> 00:50:16,440
Speaker 2: There's like some interviews, and there's some goofy like sketch

986
00:50:16,480 --> 00:50:20,360
Speaker 2: comedy stuff, and there's some like Thanksgiving, someone shot a

987
00:50:20,440 --> 00:50:22,920
Speaker 2: video of whatever, and so like she can look at

988
00:50:22,960 --> 00:50:26,960
Speaker 2: that and then she asks for like stories. I'll tell

989
00:50:26,960 --> 00:50:28,839
Speaker 2: her a story of like, oh, he here's a story

990
00:50:28,840 --> 00:50:31,480
Speaker 2: about Daddy, like you know, chess tournament when he was

991
00:50:31,520 --> 00:50:33,640
Speaker 2: in seventh grade and he was like really braddy and

992
00:50:33,680 --> 00:50:36,520
Speaker 2: a terrible loser, and so like, well, you know, she's

993
00:50:36,600 --> 00:50:38,680
Speaker 2: like ah, but then there, you know, there's a lesson

994
00:50:38,719 --> 00:50:42,000
Speaker 2: in that, and she like recently, like of her own volition,

995
00:50:42,200 --> 00:50:44,200
Speaker 2: like put a small photo of the two of them

996
00:50:44,239 --> 00:50:46,879
Speaker 2: next to her bed, you know, And I was like, oh,

997
00:50:46,960 --> 00:50:49,399
Speaker 2: so interesting, Like she's like claiming him.

998
00:50:49,680 --> 00:50:51,120
Speaker 1: That's realful. Yeah.

999
00:50:51,280 --> 00:50:53,279
Speaker 2: You know. What else is interesting though, is like she

1000
00:50:53,320 --> 00:50:55,880
Speaker 2: doesn't have a sibling, Like it's me and her, and

1001
00:50:55,920 --> 00:50:59,279
Speaker 2: she really wants a sibling. She wants a little sister. Specifically,

1002
00:50:59,520 --> 00:51:02,279
Speaker 2: she really wants me to keep dating so she can

1003
00:51:02,280 --> 00:51:04,160
Speaker 2: have a sit And I'm like, we can't engineer that

1004
00:51:04,200 --> 00:51:07,520
Speaker 2: whole thing if you post it. But it's interesting because

1005
00:51:07,520 --> 00:51:09,719
Speaker 2: I actually think like for her, losing Paul was a

1006
00:51:09,760 --> 00:51:14,080
Speaker 2: big thing, and not having like a dad there is

1007
00:51:14,120 --> 00:51:17,520
Speaker 2: a big thing, but not having a sibling is actually

1008
00:51:17,560 --> 00:51:21,000
Speaker 2: also a big thing. Or having like our family look

1009
00:51:21,080 --> 00:51:24,279
Speaker 2: different from like most of the families at school, the

1010
00:51:24,320 --> 00:51:27,239
Speaker 2: permission slip is different. Like she's not self conscious about it,

1011
00:51:27,239 --> 00:51:30,040
Speaker 2: but I think she knows it and it's a thing.

1012
00:51:30,760 --> 00:51:32,640
Speaker 2: So it's actually kind of interesting because it's not the

1013
00:51:32,680 --> 00:51:36,080
Speaker 2: only thing, you know. It's like she's piecing together, like

1014
00:51:36,520 --> 00:51:39,360
Speaker 2: you know, all of it, like the structure of everything,

1015
00:51:39,440 --> 00:51:40,479
Speaker 2: as every kid is doing.

1016
00:51:40,560 --> 00:51:43,359
Speaker 1: Right about that, I mean, you mentioned earlier that Paul

1017
00:51:43,360 --> 00:51:47,239
Speaker 1: obviously wanted you to remarry. Obviously Katie's encouraging you to date.

1018
00:51:47,360 --> 00:51:49,840
Speaker 1: Like what was that process like for you? Because you

1019
00:51:49,840 --> 00:51:51,480
Speaker 1: can say it when he's there and say, Okay, I

1020
00:51:51,600 --> 00:51:53,879
Speaker 1: understand that that's how you love me, yeah, in that

1021
00:51:53,920 --> 00:51:56,960
Speaker 1: forever way. Yeah, but what does that actually look like

1022
00:51:56,960 --> 00:51:58,920
Speaker 1: for the individual who has to go on and try

1023
00:51:58,960 --> 00:52:01,400
Speaker 1: to love again? Did you even begin to open your

1024
00:52:01,400 --> 00:52:03,920
Speaker 1: heart and mind to that possibility. Yeah, And when did

1025
00:52:03,960 --> 00:52:05,040
Speaker 1: it feel possible.

1026
00:52:05,239 --> 00:52:07,560
Speaker 2: I wasn't like trying to open my heart, so I

1027
00:52:07,600 --> 00:52:10,799
Speaker 2: was just like it was just pure intuition. I was

1028
00:52:10,840 --> 00:52:12,520
Speaker 2: just sort of like, we I'll know when I know,

1029
00:52:13,239 --> 00:52:14,920
Speaker 2: you know. For my wedding ring, I was like, I

1030
00:52:14,920 --> 00:52:18,759
Speaker 2: guess I'll take it off sometime, it's not today. And

1031
00:52:18,800 --> 00:52:21,200
Speaker 2: then like six months after Paul died, I went swimming

1032
00:52:21,320 --> 00:52:23,600
Speaker 2: and like took the ring off and then came out

1033
00:52:23,680 --> 00:52:27,120
Speaker 2: of the lake and was like, oh, I think I'm

1034
00:52:27,160 --> 00:52:30,120
Speaker 2: not going to put it back on. And then like,

1035
00:52:30,239 --> 00:52:32,680
Speaker 2: right now I have like my engagement ring in Paul's

1036
00:52:32,680 --> 00:52:35,879
Speaker 2: wedding ring on this hand, which is interesting, but maybe

1037
00:52:35,920 --> 00:52:37,960
Speaker 2: I'll take them off. Like if I were like dating

1038
00:52:37,960 --> 00:52:40,239
Speaker 2: someone really seriously, I think I would take off Paul's ring,

1039
00:52:40,320 --> 00:52:43,200
Speaker 2: you know. So I was in this like support group

1040
00:52:43,239 --> 00:52:45,960
Speaker 2: called Hot Young Widow's Club after Paul died. It was

1041
00:52:46,000 --> 00:52:49,040
Speaker 2: Nora mcinnernie made. It was incredible and there was actually

1042
00:52:49,120 --> 00:52:51,560
Speaker 2: a lot of conversation in the group. It was it

1043
00:52:51,600 --> 00:52:53,400
Speaker 2: was on Facebook at the time. There's a lot of

1044
00:52:53,400 --> 00:52:57,120
Speaker 2: conversation about like what did your person say about dating again?

1045
00:52:57,200 --> 00:52:59,360
Speaker 2: Like did you have this conversation or not, because I

1046
00:52:59,360 --> 00:53:01,279
Speaker 2: think a lot of people who had that conversation felt

1047
00:53:01,320 --> 00:53:04,080
Speaker 2: really freed by it. Some people thought like what would

1048
00:53:04,080 --> 00:53:05,400
Speaker 2: they want me to do? Or like is it a

1049
00:53:05,400 --> 00:53:08,200
Speaker 2: transgression or is it a disloyalty? And I don't think

1050
00:53:08,200 --> 00:53:10,560
Speaker 2: so at all, Like I think like not at all.

1051
00:53:11,120 --> 00:53:14,120
Speaker 2: But I think like I'll also always love Paul. It's

1052
00:53:14,239 --> 00:53:17,520
Speaker 2: really interesting and I think like the analogy for me,

1053
00:53:17,719 --> 00:53:19,959
Speaker 2: I mean, it's just like love is infinite, like there's

1054
00:53:20,160 --> 00:53:23,080
Speaker 2: totally enough love to go around. And I think for me,

1055
00:53:23,239 --> 00:53:25,640
Speaker 2: it's not a perfect analogy, but it feels a little

1056
00:53:25,640 --> 00:53:29,719
Speaker 2: bit like if someone's child had died and then they

1057
00:53:29,719 --> 00:53:35,319
Speaker 2: had another child, you would never think like, oh this

1058
00:53:35,440 --> 00:53:39,040
Speaker 2: child replaced the other child, or do they have enough

1059
00:53:39,080 --> 00:53:42,279
Speaker 2: space to like love the new child. You'd be like, no,

1060
00:53:42,600 --> 00:53:45,960
Speaker 2: they're just different, Like it's a little different once your partner, right,

1061
00:53:46,000 --> 00:53:47,520
Speaker 2: But I'm like Paul. The way I think of it

1062
00:53:47,560 --> 00:53:50,240
Speaker 2: now is like Paul's my family, Like he's my family.

1063
00:53:50,480 --> 00:53:53,480
Speaker 2: His family's my family, Like he's my family forever. And

1064
00:53:54,360 --> 00:53:58,239
Speaker 2: I absolutely like can fall in love, have fallen in love,

1065
00:53:58,360 --> 00:54:01,840
Speaker 2: Like it's just like they're enough love to go around,

1066
00:54:02,440 --> 00:54:05,960
Speaker 2: you know, it's been like pretty easy in a way,

1067
00:54:06,239 --> 00:54:08,319
Speaker 2: and I think the grief part was actually the harder part.

1068
00:54:08,400 --> 00:54:11,239
Speaker 2: It's like I needed to like heal to be like

1069
00:54:11,360 --> 00:54:14,719
Speaker 2: ready and be like emotionally available for like anything. Like

1070
00:54:15,320 --> 00:54:18,520
Speaker 2: I was just like parenting my kid and surviving and

1071
00:54:18,560 --> 00:54:20,920
Speaker 2: then I became ready. Let me know if you want

1072
00:54:20,920 --> 00:54:23,919
Speaker 2: to set me up. Yeah, they have to have one

1073
00:54:24,080 --> 00:54:25,160
Speaker 2: daughter younger than eleven.

1074
00:54:26,640 --> 00:54:29,640
Speaker 1: Yes, I got it. That's a good cry. We're going

1075
00:54:29,680 --> 00:54:32,040
Speaker 1: to put it out on the show, right exactly. I'm

1076
00:54:32,080 --> 00:54:34,640
Speaker 1: hearing from you that it's that it's that intuitive show.

1077
00:54:34,880 --> 00:54:38,000
Speaker 1: It's to me, Yeah, it's not something that you consciously

1078
00:54:38,040 --> 00:54:39,000
Speaker 1: pursue or prepare.

1079
00:54:39,200 --> 00:54:40,880
Speaker 2: Like It's probably similar for a bunch of people, right,

1080
00:54:40,920 --> 00:54:43,279
Speaker 2: like after someone gets divorced and it is like going

1081
00:54:43,320 --> 00:54:46,080
Speaker 2: through the like devastation and like identity and like what

1082
00:54:46,120 --> 00:54:48,080
Speaker 2: was what and what was my role? No? No, no, it's just

1083
00:54:48,120 --> 00:54:51,279
Speaker 2: like it's all an upheaval. Right. That's like also so

1084
00:54:51,560 --> 00:54:55,520
Speaker 2: like terribly hard, and so I don't know. Then it's like, yeah,

1085
00:54:55,520 --> 00:54:56,240
Speaker 2: when are you ready?

1086
00:54:56,400 --> 00:54:58,879
Speaker 1: Yeah? Absolutely, when are you ready? And I think that's

1087
00:54:58,920 --> 00:55:02,480
Speaker 1: the question that keeps quizzing in their mind. But like

1088
00:55:02,480 --> 00:55:05,960
Speaker 1: you said, you can only know internally. It's not a tactical,

1089
00:55:06,560 --> 00:55:08,680
Speaker 1: practical thing, right, you can kind of put it into

1090
00:55:08,680 --> 00:55:11,799
Speaker 1: a number of months or years, and yeah, it doesn't

1091
00:55:11,840 --> 00:55:14,280
Speaker 1: it doesn't work that way, right. How do you define

1092
00:55:14,280 --> 00:55:14,840
Speaker 1: love today?

1093
00:55:15,239 --> 00:55:17,480
Speaker 2: I mean I saw you talk about it actually on

1094
00:55:17,520 --> 00:55:20,399
Speaker 2: a clip where you were like, the person who loves

1095
00:55:20,440 --> 00:55:23,759
Speaker 2: you will never use your wounds against you, And then

1096
00:55:23,800 --> 00:55:26,600
Speaker 2: you talked about how your wife like holds no judgment

1097
00:55:26,680 --> 00:55:29,520
Speaker 2: for you, and I was like, of course, of course,

1098
00:55:29,760 --> 00:55:32,720
Speaker 2: because you're you, like and I don't mean you're Jay Shatty.

1099
00:55:32,760 --> 00:55:36,600
Speaker 2: I mean like you're you're the person they love, so like, yeah,

1100
00:55:36,600 --> 00:55:39,200
Speaker 2: there's no judgment of whatever the thing is. There's just

1101
00:55:40,000 --> 00:55:42,399
Speaker 2: like partnership. It doesn't mean you could like endlessly hurt

1102
00:55:42,400 --> 00:55:45,919
Speaker 2: the person either, but like, I don't know that's part

1103
00:55:45,960 --> 00:55:47,879
Speaker 2: of it. I think I think there is like an

1104
00:55:47,960 --> 00:55:51,879
Speaker 2: unconditionality to love for sure. And at the same time,

1105
00:55:51,920 --> 00:55:54,760
Speaker 2: I think like that is more true for like children

1106
00:55:54,760 --> 00:55:57,880
Speaker 2: than adults. Like you don't love adults unconditionally, right, You

1107
00:55:57,920 --> 00:56:01,840
Speaker 2: like have boundaries that like adults, like importance can't actually cross,

1108
00:56:02,000 --> 00:56:04,239
Speaker 2: but like as long as you can like work a

1109
00:56:04,320 --> 00:56:09,879
Speaker 2: relationship within that like real like partnership and spaciousness and

1110
00:56:10,080 --> 00:56:11,240
Speaker 2: like non judgment.

1111
00:56:11,520 --> 00:56:12,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a hard question.

1112
00:56:12,719 --> 00:56:13,560
Speaker 2: It's a really hard question.

1113
00:56:13,719 --> 00:56:16,799
Speaker 1: You say, I'm always changing my mind. I think there's

1114
00:56:16,880 --> 00:56:19,879
Speaker 1: so many nuances and facets to it that it's so

1115
00:56:20,000 --> 00:56:21,759
Speaker 1: it's such a hard question. I think that's why we

1116
00:56:21,800 --> 00:56:24,480
Speaker 1: all struggle with it so much in finding it and

1117
00:56:24,520 --> 00:56:25,120
Speaker 1: looking for it.

1118
00:56:25,160 --> 00:56:26,879
Speaker 2: That's the answer to right, is like I would also

1119
00:56:26,920 --> 00:56:29,120
Speaker 2: be like fun and growth, But it's like at the

1120
00:56:29,160 --> 00:56:31,120
Speaker 2: same time, you're like, it's sort of like that thing

1121
00:56:31,160 --> 00:56:33,759
Speaker 2: where it's like you know when you're know, like it's intuitive.

1122
00:56:34,239 --> 00:56:37,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean ultimately it's teamwork, and teamwork requires all

1123
00:56:37,760 --> 00:56:40,640
Speaker 1: those things you just said. Yeah, teamwork should be fun,

1124
00:56:40,680 --> 00:56:44,319
Speaker 1: and it should have growth, and it should have mutuality,

1125
00:56:44,400 --> 00:56:47,400
Speaker 1: and it should have reciprocation totally, it should have connection

1126
00:56:47,600 --> 00:56:51,600
Speaker 1: and communicate and so teamwork just it feels very simplistic,

1127
00:56:51,680 --> 00:56:53,320
Speaker 1: but it gives you a good visual.

1128
00:56:53,480 --> 00:56:56,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, And at the same time, like I do think

1129
00:56:56,239 --> 00:56:59,200
Speaker 2: it's like, I mean, you know this, but like obviously

1130
00:56:59,200 --> 00:57:01,120
Speaker 2: it's never going to be or fit either. Like there's

1131
00:57:01,120 --> 00:57:05,120
Speaker 2: something actually really romantic and like choosing and like choosing

1132
00:57:05,200 --> 00:57:07,520
Speaker 2: like on a daily basis, you know, like that's very

1133
00:57:07,640 --> 00:57:11,200
Speaker 2: romantic of like sometimes one person's up, one person's down.

1134
00:57:11,280 --> 00:57:16,440
Speaker 2: Sometimes it's like you know, difficult, you know, but similarly

1135
00:57:16,520 --> 00:57:17,720
Speaker 2: like that's your team.

1136
00:57:18,040 --> 00:57:22,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, exactly exactly, and it's it's shared yeah, experience,

1137
00:57:22,920 --> 00:57:25,960
Speaker 1: it's a shared life. It's a co created life. Yeah,

1138
00:57:26,080 --> 00:57:29,400
Speaker 1: it's a co creation I think is so important and

1139
00:57:29,720 --> 00:57:32,560
Speaker 1: co holding and co co everything.

1140
00:57:32,880 --> 00:57:36,000
Speaker 2: Well, also like you're still like two beings like correct,

1141
00:57:36,080 --> 00:57:39,640
Speaker 2: you're you correct, absolutely, Yeah, Yeah, it's complicated. I mean

1142
00:57:39,680 --> 00:57:41,400
Speaker 2: it's like it's a constant as you're saying this, it's

1143
00:57:41,440 --> 00:57:44,280
Speaker 2: like similarly to the like end of Illusion, end of

1144
00:57:44,320 --> 00:57:47,080
Speaker 2: History illusion. It's like it's never done and dusted, like

1145
00:57:47,120 --> 00:57:49,320
Speaker 2: it's like it's like constantly like work.

1146
00:57:49,400 --> 00:57:51,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I wanted to talk to you a

1147
00:57:51,720 --> 00:57:55,360
Speaker 1: bit about this idea of and I know you've spoken

1148
00:57:55,360 --> 00:57:58,560
Speaker 1: about this, this idea of like reimagining how we die,

1149
00:57:59,160 --> 00:58:01,840
Speaker 1: because yeah, it kind of goes back to what you

1150
00:58:01,840 --> 00:58:06,240
Speaker 1: were saying earlier about the survivor or the beating cancer approach.

1151
00:58:06,640 --> 00:58:10,880
Speaker 1: My monk friend who passed away, like he was very

1152
00:58:10,920 --> 00:58:14,440
Speaker 1: positive and he almost just didn't let anyone in to

1153
00:58:14,600 --> 00:58:16,920
Speaker 1: what he was feeling and going through, and that was

1154
00:58:16,960 --> 00:58:20,600
Speaker 1: his version of how he dealt with it, and as

1155
00:58:20,600 --> 00:58:22,760
Speaker 1: far as I know from him, I believe he was

1156
00:58:22,760 --> 00:58:24,640
Speaker 1: happy with that. And then of course at the end

1157
00:58:24,640 --> 00:58:26,600
Speaker 1: of his life he needed support and help and everything,

1158
00:58:26,600 --> 00:58:30,600
Speaker 1: and he got that. I wonder what your take is

1159
00:58:30,640 --> 00:58:33,200
Speaker 1: on having obviously done this. It has been a doctor

1160
00:58:33,240 --> 00:58:37,440
Speaker 1: has seen patients, been at grief groups. Like when you

1161
00:58:37,480 --> 00:58:40,240
Speaker 1: think about this idea of people battling between letting go

1162
00:58:41,360 --> 00:58:45,280
Speaker 1: and giving up, and like what the difference is and

1163
00:58:45,520 --> 00:58:47,760
Speaker 1: what you do when you get a diagnosis and how

1164
00:58:47,800 --> 00:58:50,560
Speaker 1: you weigh up whether I should fight till the end

1165
00:58:50,880 --> 00:58:52,560
Speaker 1: or whether I'm giving up or actually am I just

1166
00:58:52,640 --> 00:58:55,520
Speaker 1: letting go? Like can you help make sense of that

1167
00:58:55,560 --> 00:58:56,240
Speaker 1: to some degree?

1168
00:58:56,400 --> 00:59:02,160
Speaker 2: Totally? I mean no, I mean I hear you about

1169
00:59:02,160 --> 00:59:03,840
Speaker 2: your friend, and it really is like to each his own,

1170
00:59:04,000 --> 00:59:07,440
Speaker 2: like people really have different ways of coping. It is

1171
00:59:07,480 --> 00:59:12,600
Speaker 2: a weird time to die in America in history because

1172
00:59:12,680 --> 00:59:16,440
Speaker 2: like that sort of like battle idea, Like death is

1173
00:59:16,560 --> 00:59:19,840
Speaker 2: very medicalized and like very sort of like western medicalized

1174
00:59:20,040 --> 00:59:23,160
Speaker 2: right now here. And I think there's like a lot

1175
00:59:23,200 --> 00:59:26,720
Speaker 2: of reasons for that, but the battle metaphor is one

1176
00:59:26,720 --> 00:59:31,200
Speaker 2: of them. And another one is like we have all

1177
00:59:31,280 --> 00:59:35,320
Speaker 2: of this technology available that is like you know, built

1178
00:59:35,320 --> 00:59:38,439
Speaker 2: for emergencies, but is getting offered to people who are

1179
00:59:38,480 --> 00:59:43,959
Speaker 2: like ninety, you know, with like failing organs. I think

1180
00:59:43,960 --> 00:59:47,920
Speaker 2: there's so much taboo around talking about death and dying,

1181
00:59:48,240 --> 00:59:50,800
Speaker 2: and meanwhile also so much hunger to like crack it

1182
00:59:50,840 --> 00:59:53,240
Speaker 2: open and think about it. I think like suffering and

1183
00:59:53,320 --> 00:59:56,680
Speaker 2: dying are really hidden, like from view the way that

1184
00:59:56,720 --> 00:59:59,680
Speaker 2: they haven't been across history. For people, it's like really

1185
00:59:59,680 --> 01:00:01,640
Speaker 2: interesting to be like, oh, what's happening over there? Like

1186
01:00:01,680 --> 01:00:03,920
Speaker 2: how are we supposed to talk about it? So I

1187
01:00:03,920 --> 01:00:06,480
Speaker 2: think there's sort of this like cultural force to like

1188
01:00:07,400 --> 01:00:10,840
Speaker 2: intervene to like, you know, anyone who's been through like

1189
01:00:11,200 --> 01:00:14,320
Speaker 2: a serious illness with someone has seen how much sort

1190
01:00:14,360 --> 01:00:18,560
Speaker 2: of like momentum there is toward like aggressive medical care.

1191
01:00:19,160 --> 01:00:20,480
Speaker 2: I think of it when you were saying, like, how

1192
01:00:20,480 --> 01:00:22,920
Speaker 2: do you choose whether to like, you know, am I

1193
01:00:22,960 --> 01:00:25,640
Speaker 2: giving up? Am I beating it? I guess in my

1194
01:00:25,760 --> 01:00:27,640
Speaker 2: mind I sort of think of it as like a

1195
01:00:27,680 --> 01:00:30,360
Speaker 2: thing is happening, Like a thing is happening. It's like

1196
01:00:31,040 --> 01:00:35,320
Speaker 2: now there is Parkinson's here, or now this person has

1197
01:00:35,360 --> 01:00:38,200
Speaker 2: metastatic cancer, and like it's going to play out the

1198
01:00:38,200 --> 01:00:40,800
Speaker 2: way it's going to play out, and so like how

1199
01:00:40,840 --> 01:00:43,360
Speaker 2: do you like provide health care that's going to make

1200
01:00:43,360 --> 01:00:46,360
Speaker 2: that the best possible, like extend life as long as possible,

1201
01:00:46,480 --> 01:00:49,960
Speaker 2: extend functionality, like as long as possible, help people do

1202
01:00:50,080 --> 01:00:52,040
Speaker 2: the things that they want to do that are important

1203
01:00:52,040 --> 01:00:54,920
Speaker 2: to them. But there is some like building of like

1204
01:00:54,960 --> 01:00:58,920
Speaker 2: you can sort of choose healthcare within that to kind

1205
01:00:58,960 --> 01:01:00,920
Speaker 2: of like design your health care or like make your

1206
01:01:01,000 --> 01:01:05,360
Speaker 2: choices around what's important to you. But that requires like

1207
01:01:05,360 --> 01:01:07,640
Speaker 2: sort of facing up to like what is happening, what

1208
01:01:07,760 --> 01:01:11,680
Speaker 2: is possible, and then like having the teams taken care

1209
01:01:11,680 --> 01:01:14,080
Speaker 2: of you like also level with you about that with

1210
01:01:14,160 --> 01:01:18,120
Speaker 2: their knowledge and experience. I mean there's like two things

1211
01:01:18,120 --> 01:01:21,440
Speaker 2: like for I'll give you practical tip about it. But

1212
01:01:21,480 --> 01:01:23,640
Speaker 2: if people are like I am facing an illness, my

1213
01:01:23,640 --> 01:01:26,040
Speaker 2: family member has an illness, I want to be able

1214
01:01:26,080 --> 01:01:28,280
Speaker 2: to like figure this out, but like how on earth

1215
01:01:28,280 --> 01:01:31,720
Speaker 2: am I supposed to do that? One thing people can

1216
01:01:31,800 --> 01:01:36,440
Speaker 2: do is ask for a palliative care team to be

1217
01:01:36,520 --> 01:01:39,280
Speaker 2: part of their care. People get really scared around the

1218
01:01:39,320 --> 01:01:42,680
Speaker 2: word palliative, So like palliative care, hospice is a teeny

1219
01:01:42,720 --> 01:01:44,840
Speaker 2: part of it. So hospice is like palliative care for

1220
01:01:44,920 --> 01:01:48,080
Speaker 2: people who are actually dying soon, like you literally have

1221
01:01:48,120 --> 01:01:50,680
Speaker 2: to be certified like very likely more likely than not

1222
01:01:50,760 --> 01:01:53,200
Speaker 2: that you would die within six months. That's hospice. Then

1223
01:01:53,200 --> 01:01:55,200
Speaker 2: there's paladive care, which is huge. You could be like

1224
01:01:55,240 --> 01:01:58,600
Speaker 2: a twenty two year old with Hodgkins lymphoma who's going

1225
01:01:58,640 --> 01:02:01,800
Speaker 2: to be cured in two years and it's like really

1226
01:02:01,800 --> 01:02:03,840
Speaker 2: struggling and suffering, and they'll take care of you too.

1227
01:02:04,600 --> 01:02:06,400
Speaker 2: Or you could be someone with heart failure where it

1228
01:02:06,400 --> 01:02:08,040
Speaker 2: goes up and down and up and down for years,

1229
01:02:08,280 --> 01:02:09,880
Speaker 2: and you could have palliative care take care of you.

1230
01:02:10,160 --> 01:02:14,960
Speaker 2: And basically it's it's a concurrent care model alongside whatever

1231
01:02:15,000 --> 01:02:18,320
Speaker 2: other care you're getting, alongside the oncologist, alongside the neurologist

1232
01:02:18,440 --> 01:02:20,560
Speaker 2: or whomever is taking care of you. It's actually a

1233
01:02:20,600 --> 01:02:23,800
Speaker 2: medical specialty that only was recognized in the US twenty

1234
01:02:23,840 --> 01:02:25,440
Speaker 2: years ago. It grew up just like a little bit

1235
01:02:25,480 --> 01:02:30,680
Speaker 2: before that. But they combine like chaplaincy nurses, social workers,

1236
01:02:31,080 --> 01:02:34,360
Speaker 2: like doctors or other clinicians, and then they take care

1237
01:02:34,360 --> 01:02:36,240
Speaker 2: of your family too, So like when you walk in

1238
01:02:36,280 --> 01:02:38,400
Speaker 2: the door, they're like, who else is taking care of you?

1239
01:02:38,440 --> 01:02:40,560
Speaker 2: Who else is with you? Hey, does this person need something?

1240
01:02:40,560 --> 01:02:43,400
Speaker 2: It's so incredible It's like, if you could just dissolve

1241
01:02:43,960 --> 01:02:47,880
Speaker 2: the healthcare system, which Walter Cronkite side is neither healthy

1242
01:02:47,880 --> 01:02:50,880
Speaker 2: nor caring, norse system, you would just like start with

1243
01:02:50,920 --> 01:02:53,520
Speaker 2: palliative care and then just like build everything else around that.

1244
01:02:54,000 --> 01:02:57,400
Speaker 2: There's a lot of like miss misunderstandings about what palliative

1245
01:02:57,400 --> 01:03:00,320
Speaker 2: care is. But if anybody's struggling and isn't true where

1246
01:03:00,360 --> 01:03:03,439
Speaker 2: to turn for that? They're so incredible and you could

1247
01:03:03,440 --> 01:03:05,000
Speaker 2: just ask, You would just be like, can I have

1248
01:03:05,000 --> 01:03:07,160
Speaker 2: a palladive care specialist to be part of what we're doing?

1249
01:03:07,320 --> 01:03:10,080
Speaker 1: Yeah? Absolutely, thank you for sharing that. It feels like

1250
01:03:10,120 --> 01:03:13,840
Speaker 1: there's all these hidden things that exist already that that

1251
01:03:13,920 --> 01:03:16,600
Speaker 1: we miss out. And even even like the what was

1252
01:03:16,600 --> 01:03:22,440
Speaker 1: it the Hot Widows that's yeah, even the camp you

1253
01:03:22,440 --> 01:03:24,800
Speaker 1: were talking about earlier when before we started recording.

1254
01:03:24,920 --> 01:03:26,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, kid is at camp CASSM.

1255
01:03:26,640 --> 01:03:26,880
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1256
01:03:27,480 --> 01:03:29,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, And just there's all these things out there that

1257
01:03:30,120 --> 01:03:34,160
Speaker 1: people so many beautiful, so many beautiful things to help

1258
01:03:34,200 --> 01:03:37,560
Speaker 1: people at different stages and you almost don't know and

1259
01:03:37,560 --> 01:03:40,200
Speaker 1: and hopefully people who are in the position know, but

1260
01:03:40,320 --> 01:03:42,920
Speaker 1: if they don't, it's yeah, I really appreciate you sharing them.

1261
01:03:43,000 --> 01:03:43,520
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1262
01:03:43,600 --> 01:03:45,600
Speaker 1: I think this is such an important conversation that I

1263
01:03:45,640 --> 01:03:48,080
Speaker 1: feel like you're such a big part of, like how

1264
01:03:48,120 --> 01:03:51,600
Speaker 1: do we help people take back their dignity when they're dying?

1265
01:03:51,680 --> 01:03:54,000
Speaker 1: Like what does what does that actually mean? What does

1266
01:03:54,000 --> 01:03:54,560
Speaker 1: that look like?

1267
01:03:55,080 --> 01:03:59,400
Speaker 2: I think the broad strokes answer is like, don't forget

1268
01:03:59,480 --> 01:04:02,600
Speaker 2: that they're a part, don't forget that they are still them.

1269
01:04:03,240 --> 01:04:06,040
Speaker 2: Think about what you would want in that situation, you know.

1270
01:04:06,120 --> 01:04:09,280
Speaker 2: I think, like like we were saying, it's like illness

1271
01:04:09,280 --> 01:04:11,920
Speaker 2: and dying can be sort of so flattening of like

1272
01:04:12,000 --> 01:04:16,680
Speaker 2: your humanity, your complexity. It's so sort of like undignified, right,

1273
01:04:16,680 --> 01:04:20,240
Speaker 2: You're like you become sort of like infantilized, you know.

1274
01:04:20,400 --> 01:04:22,000
Speaker 2: Or if you're in a hospital or if you're somewhere,

1275
01:04:22,160 --> 01:04:24,800
Speaker 2: if you're in a healthcare facility, you're literally naked. You know,

1276
01:04:24,800 --> 01:04:27,080
Speaker 2: you're not even wearing your own clothes. So just as

1277
01:04:27,160 --> 01:04:32,040
Speaker 2: much as like people can protect your privacy, ask you

1278
01:04:32,080 --> 01:04:35,760
Speaker 2: what's important to you? Make things beautiful like sensually, you know,

1279
01:04:35,920 --> 01:04:39,400
Speaker 2: like there are flowers here, there's music here, Like people

1280
01:04:39,440 --> 01:04:42,080
Speaker 2: are touching you, like people are looking you in the eye.

1281
01:04:42,280 --> 01:04:44,880
Speaker 2: Like I don't know, I could say a million other examples.

1282
01:04:45,480 --> 01:04:48,240
Speaker 2: I also think like respecting what someone like cares about,

1283
01:04:48,680 --> 01:04:51,080
Speaker 2: like you know, when people are dying and they're trying

1284
01:04:51,080 --> 01:04:54,120
Speaker 2: to make a difficult decision like Paul did. I wrote

1285
01:04:54,120 --> 01:04:56,720
Speaker 2: about this in the end of Paul's book. But he

1286
01:04:56,840 --> 01:04:59,560
Speaker 2: was very, very sick and ultimately got rushed to the

1287
01:04:59,720 --> 01:05:02,840
Speaker 2: icy because he was suffering so much and couldn't breathe well,

1288
01:05:03,280 --> 01:05:06,040
Speaker 2: and then had to make this decision about whether to

1289
01:05:06,600 --> 01:05:09,120
Speaker 2: be intubated, like whether to be on a breathing machine.

1290
01:05:09,680 --> 01:05:11,840
Speaker 2: A lot of people who are sick end up sort

1291
01:05:11,840 --> 01:05:14,320
Speaker 2: of with a north star of what's really important to them.

1292
01:05:14,320 --> 01:05:16,080
Speaker 2: I want to be with my family. I want to

1293
01:05:16,120 --> 01:05:17,680
Speaker 2: be free of pain. I want to make it to

1294
01:05:17,720 --> 01:05:20,880
Speaker 2: my child's graduation. For Paul, his was I want to

1295
01:05:20,880 --> 01:05:24,040
Speaker 2: be mentally lucid, Like I want to be mentally lucid

1296
01:05:24,120 --> 01:05:26,400
Speaker 2: to like be with my family and keep writing as

1297
01:05:26,440 --> 01:05:28,280
Speaker 2: long as I can write. He literally was like writing

1298
01:05:28,360 --> 01:05:30,400
Speaker 2: up until like two to three days before he died,

1299
01:05:30,760 --> 01:05:36,000
Speaker 2: and so that decision about whether to be intubated became

1300
01:05:36,040 --> 01:05:39,000
Speaker 2: really clear, you know, where he's like, there's a chance

1301
01:05:39,040 --> 01:05:42,200
Speaker 2: if I get intubated, then I will not be extubated

1302
01:05:42,200 --> 01:05:45,040
Speaker 2: and instead, like we'll stop life support. And so for

1303
01:05:45,160 --> 01:05:48,600
Speaker 2: him it was like the way to like maintain his

1304
01:05:48,680 --> 01:05:52,600
Speaker 2: dignity was like or align with his values was like, Okay,

1305
01:05:52,600 --> 01:05:54,720
Speaker 2: if this is the end of mental lucidity, then this

1306
01:05:54,800 --> 01:05:58,720
Speaker 2: is the end, and like we'll listen to you, you know,

1307
01:05:58,960 --> 01:06:03,000
Speaker 2: like great like will make that happen, which was when

1308
01:06:03,040 --> 01:06:06,440
Speaker 2: that was actually happening, it was like incredibly confusing, incredibly painful,

1309
01:06:06,520 --> 01:06:09,960
Speaker 2: incredibly so hard, but also like so there was a

1310
01:06:10,000 --> 01:06:13,240
Speaker 2: grounding thing which was like, what's important to Paul.

1311
01:06:13,280 --> 01:06:16,240
Speaker 1: When I hear that, I think about how usually when

1312
01:06:16,240 --> 01:06:19,840
Speaker 1: we're losing someone, we're worrying about how it affects us yea,

1313
01:06:20,040 --> 01:06:23,880
Speaker 1: and yeah, they're the one who's going through lost too.

1314
01:06:24,400 --> 01:06:27,360
Speaker 1: It's shit, it shared. It is two ways, but it's

1315
01:06:27,360 --> 01:06:29,920
Speaker 1: almost like I think us, all of us naturally would

1316
01:06:29,920 --> 01:06:34,520
Speaker 1: want the person to stay totally, but there's a independence

1317
01:06:34,560 --> 01:06:38,320
Speaker 1: and decision that that person also needs clarity on and

1318
01:06:38,360 --> 01:06:39,840
Speaker 1: like you said, it may be yes, I want to

1319
01:06:39,840 --> 01:06:42,480
Speaker 1: do this, but his one was so specific to his

1320
01:06:42,880 --> 01:06:44,160
Speaker 1: total in the.

1321
01:06:44,080 --> 01:06:48,480
Speaker 2: World totally and at the same time, like medically, like

1322
01:06:48,520 --> 01:06:51,880
Speaker 2: families can go through real trauma like literal PTSD from

1323
01:06:51,920 --> 01:06:55,560
Speaker 2: like participating in medical care or having like their loved

1324
01:06:55,560 --> 01:06:57,880
Speaker 2: one get care that wasn't in line with their values,

1325
01:06:57,960 --> 01:06:59,960
Speaker 2: or that they ultimately thought like, oh that did cause

1326
01:07:00,040 --> 01:07:03,200
Speaker 2: them unnecessary suffering. So it's like there's always a trade off,

1327
01:07:03,240 --> 01:07:07,160
Speaker 2: you know, Like it's like it can hurt everybody.

1328
01:07:07,520 --> 01:07:09,920
Speaker 1: Do you believe anything needs to change in the standard

1329
01:07:09,920 --> 01:07:13,120
Speaker 1: protocol of how doctors deliver terminal news?

1330
01:07:14,280 --> 01:07:17,240
Speaker 2: Totally. When I was in medical school, which was twenty

1331
01:07:17,320 --> 01:07:21,000
Speaker 2: years ago, they were just starting to teach like, hey,

1332
01:07:21,080 --> 01:07:23,919
Speaker 2: make sure you attend to the emotion in the room,

1333
01:07:24,120 --> 01:07:29,280
Speaker 2: so like if someone is crying, pause, allows some space.

1334
01:07:29,360 --> 01:07:32,000
Speaker 2: It'll feel like a long time to you, doesn't feel

1335
01:07:32,000 --> 01:07:33,920
Speaker 2: like a long time to them. And then you can

1336
01:07:33,960 --> 01:07:36,800
Speaker 2: even say I see the tears in your eyes and

1337
01:07:36,880 --> 01:07:39,200
Speaker 2: just leave it. Or you can say this looks like

1338
01:07:39,240 --> 01:07:41,080
Speaker 2: it's feeling really sad, you know what I mean. Like

1339
01:07:41,080 --> 01:07:44,160
Speaker 2: we were learning those skills. It was really interesting because

1340
01:07:44,560 --> 01:07:46,680
Speaker 2: they were teaching it to us like they were skills

1341
01:07:47,000 --> 01:07:49,080
Speaker 2: because they actually are. And then you have a little

1342
01:07:49,120 --> 01:07:51,320
Speaker 2: mnemonic about like attend to the emotion in the room,

1343
01:07:51,320 --> 01:07:53,960
Speaker 2: but it's real, like it's you. It becomes part of you,

1344
01:07:54,960 --> 01:07:56,800
Speaker 2: I think, you know. There was a study of doctors

1345
01:07:56,840 --> 01:08:01,200
Speaker 2: that said half of doctors said they had given a

1346
01:08:01,200 --> 01:08:05,960
Speaker 2: prognosis that was rosier than what their actual medical opinion was,

1347
01:08:06,040 --> 01:08:08,840
Speaker 2: which is so interesting. It's like even in the hospital,

1348
01:08:08,880 --> 01:08:11,480
Speaker 2: it's like you sort of make this assumption of like

1349
01:08:11,560 --> 01:08:14,680
Speaker 2: what hope means to people, Like hope means longer life.

1350
01:08:14,720 --> 01:08:16,160
Speaker 2: So I'm going to say that I'm going to keep

1351
01:08:16,200 --> 01:08:18,200
Speaker 2: them on the outer bounds of what could be possible.

1352
01:08:18,680 --> 01:08:21,400
Speaker 2: But I think what many people respond to, like what

1353
01:08:21,439 --> 01:08:23,600
Speaker 2: I've ended up learning is a really good way to

1354
01:08:23,640 --> 01:08:26,920
Speaker 2: share with patients or even frame it to yourself is

1355
01:08:27,479 --> 01:08:31,280
Speaker 2: thinking a about like prognostication, for example, as a range.

1356
01:08:31,560 --> 01:08:33,320
Speaker 2: So like instead of saying like you have six months

1357
01:08:33,360 --> 01:08:35,679
Speaker 2: to live because like that's the median and the studies,

1358
01:08:36,200 --> 01:08:39,519
Speaker 2: you say, like it's likely a few months to a

1359
01:08:39,560 --> 01:08:43,559
Speaker 2: few years, which is like broader but more accurate really,

1360
01:08:43,960 --> 01:08:47,000
Speaker 2: and that's like enough information for someone to decide like

1361
01:08:47,080 --> 01:08:49,040
Speaker 2: do they want to have a baby like during this

1362
01:08:49,120 --> 01:08:49,840
Speaker 2: illness or not?

1363
01:08:49,920 --> 01:08:50,120
Speaker 1: You know.

1364
01:08:50,479 --> 01:08:53,040
Speaker 2: And then similarly, another way that we've been trained to

1365
01:08:53,040 --> 01:08:55,240
Speaker 2: tell people that we're training our students to tell people

1366
01:08:55,760 --> 01:08:58,639
Speaker 2: is a model where you say you share the best case,

1367
01:08:58,720 --> 01:09:02,360
Speaker 2: the worst case, and the most likely case, and actually

1368
01:09:02,439 --> 01:09:04,439
Speaker 2: people can have a lot people get a lot of

1369
01:09:04,479 --> 01:09:08,120
Speaker 2: information from that where they can decide like how much

1370
01:09:08,200 --> 01:09:10,360
Speaker 2: risk do I want to take to aim for the best,

1371
01:09:10,360 --> 01:09:13,120
Speaker 2: to prepare for the worst. And then they're kind of like, well,

1372
01:09:13,160 --> 01:09:15,559
Speaker 2: I'm still allowing space for the best, and in the meantime,

1373
01:09:15,800 --> 01:09:18,080
Speaker 2: I'll make sure my family knows what i want when

1374
01:09:18,080 --> 01:09:18,479
Speaker 2: I'm gone.

1375
01:09:18,640 --> 01:09:18,880
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1376
01:09:18,920 --> 01:09:22,760
Speaker 2: So, like I think, like doctors are being taught to

1377
01:09:22,840 --> 01:09:27,880
Speaker 2: allow just like space space, space space and more like accuracy.

1378
01:09:28,000 --> 01:09:31,240
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, that's really helpful to hear. It's helpful to

1379
01:09:31,280 --> 01:09:33,600
Speaker 1: hear how humans process.

1380
01:09:33,880 --> 01:09:37,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's also like not just one conversation, Like, of course,

1381
01:09:37,240 --> 01:09:39,880
Speaker 2: the first time you hear the news, like then you know,

1382
01:09:40,000 --> 01:09:42,320
Speaker 2: hear anything else, right then you have to hear it again,

1383
01:09:43,200 --> 01:09:45,320
Speaker 2: you know, you hear it from different people. But yes,

1384
01:09:45,479 --> 01:09:47,959
Speaker 2: it needs to change, and it is changing thinkingness.

1385
01:09:48,360 --> 01:09:49,920
Speaker 1: I think right now in the world we're talking a

1386
01:09:49,920 --> 01:09:55,120
Speaker 1: lot about aging. Well, Yeah, what's your sense of what

1387
01:09:55,160 --> 01:09:55,880
Speaker 1: it means to die?

1388
01:09:55,920 --> 01:09:59,000
Speaker 2: Well, I think that living well is the same. I

1389
01:09:59,040 --> 01:10:01,360
Speaker 2: think like the way to not be afraid of dying

1390
01:10:02,120 --> 01:10:04,320
Speaker 2: is to feel that you've had a meaningful life. That's

1391
01:10:04,320 --> 01:10:07,040
Speaker 2: what I think. I think that's what ended up being

1392
01:10:07,080 --> 01:10:09,639
Speaker 2: true for Paul. And I'll just tell you like something

1393
01:10:09,640 --> 01:10:12,760
Speaker 2: beautiful that like Paul felt that, I hope I feel too,

1394
01:10:12,800 --> 01:10:15,160
Speaker 2: because I also think this sort of encompasses like a

1395
01:10:15,200 --> 01:10:18,640
Speaker 2: good depth is like similarly, if you're lucky enough to

1396
01:10:18,760 --> 01:10:22,920
Speaker 2: like have the tools to like build a life that

1397
01:10:22,960 --> 01:10:27,160
Speaker 2: you felt as meaningful. I think Paul ended up feeling like,

1398
01:10:27,200 --> 01:10:29,519
Speaker 2: not to sound cheesy, but I love this. He ended

1399
01:10:29,600 --> 01:10:33,839
Speaker 2: up feeling I'm not dying, feeling that I'm losing everything.

1400
01:10:34,200 --> 01:10:38,280
Speaker 2: I'm dying, feeling that I have everything, which I think

1401
01:10:38,360 --> 01:10:42,800
Speaker 2: is so cool. You know, so I don't know hasn't

1402
01:10:42,800 --> 01:10:44,719
Speaker 2: happened to me yet, so it'll be a surprise.

1403
01:10:45,000 --> 01:10:50,440
Speaker 1: That's a really powerful answer and quite an unfathomable mindset,

1404
01:10:50,600 --> 01:10:53,840
Speaker 1: because you could argue he he could have felt he

1405
01:10:53,840 --> 01:10:56,160
Speaker 1: didn't have everything, like he hadn't had Katie yet, and

1406
01:10:56,200 --> 01:10:58,920
Speaker 1: you know, like he hadn't had that experience, and which

1407
01:10:58,960 --> 01:11:01,160
Speaker 1: seems like the natural thing we all feel at that

1408
01:11:01,240 --> 01:11:03,000
Speaker 1: time where it's like I haven't done this yet or

1409
01:11:03,040 --> 01:11:05,280
Speaker 1: haven't seen this, or want to make it to this

1410
01:11:05,360 --> 01:11:06,599
Speaker 1: and sort of really say.

1411
01:11:06,400 --> 01:11:09,320
Speaker 2: It always be true, Yeah, that'll be true for everyone.

1412
01:11:09,439 --> 01:11:12,040
Speaker 1: But he was able to say he had everything he felt.

1413
01:11:11,720 --> 01:11:16,479
Speaker 2: That yeah or enough, like enough enough, yeah enough, yeah,

1414
01:11:16,560 --> 01:11:18,960
Speaker 2: I struggled with it later too, and then a friend

1415
01:11:19,040 --> 01:11:21,200
Speaker 2: was like, what if it was enough? And I was like,

1416
01:11:22,200 --> 01:11:24,679
Speaker 2: what if it was enough? Thank you so much, thanks

1417
01:11:24,720 --> 01:11:25,160
Speaker 2: for having me.

1418
01:11:25,360 --> 01:11:28,280
Speaker 1: So grateful, truly, I'm so grateful to meet you, so

1419
01:11:28,360 --> 01:11:31,200
Speaker 1: grateful for your openness, so grateful to learn about Katie

1420
01:11:31,200 --> 01:11:36,760
Speaker 1: and Paul and and yourself, And thank you truly in

1421
01:11:36,840 --> 01:11:40,360
Speaker 1: awe of your resilience and courage.

1422
01:11:40,560 --> 01:11:42,040
Speaker 2: That's like wild to hear you say that.

1423
01:11:42,320 --> 01:11:44,400
Speaker 1: It's true. I really mean it's.

1424
01:11:44,760 --> 01:11:47,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, what a treat I mean truly, Yeah, no, it's.

1425
01:11:47,520 --> 01:11:50,280
Speaker 1: It's melted my heart. Yeah, truly, I really mean that.

1426
01:11:50,560 --> 01:11:54,200
Speaker 1: Thank you. Thank you such a joy. If you love

1427
01:11:54,240 --> 01:11:57,920
Speaker 1: this episode, you love my conversation with Malala use off

1428
01:11:58,000 --> 01:12:02,439
Speaker 1: side on how she transformed dream adversity into global purpose.

1429
01:12:02,680 --> 01:12:04,880
Speaker 2: I was hanging out with some friends and what was

1430
01:12:05,120 --> 01:12:09,240
Speaker 2: supposed to be a fun night just took a sharp turn,

1431
01:12:09,680 --> 01:12:12,839
Speaker 2: and immediately I froze.