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Speaker 1: what we eat would play a role in something like depression,

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Speaker 1: bipolar disorder, or schizophrenia. When you actually start to pull

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Speaker 1: back the curtain, it's horrifying.

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Speaker 2: How do we know if metabolism is healthy or unhealthy?

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Speaker 1: How's my mood, how's my anxiety, how's my ability to sleep?

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Speaker 1: Any of those things should be at least warning signs

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Speaker 1: that you may have impaired metabolism somehow or another impact

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Speaker 1: in your brain.

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Speaker 2: Chris, it is so great to have you here today

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Speaker 2: and I'm so excited to ask you so many questions.

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Speaker 2: Thank you for making the time, and thanks for.

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Speaker 1: Being Thank you so much for having me on.

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Speaker 2: Chris, I want to start with something that I watched

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Speaker 2: a part of recently. You recently addressed the Senate and

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Speaker 2: I thought it was a really powerful speech you gave,

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Speaker 2: and I just wanted the audience to get context. What

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Speaker 2: was the thesis? So what was the main approach for

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Speaker 2: that presentation and speech?

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Speaker 1: The overar chain theme of that roundtable discussion was that

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Speaker 1: here in the United States and actually throughout the world,

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Speaker 1: we have an ever increasing chronic disease epidemic, and so

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Speaker 1: many people focus on the epidemics of obesity and diabetes,

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Speaker 1: and there's no doubt that those are skyrocketing in prevalence.

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Speaker 1: And I was there to represent the mental health epidemic

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Speaker 1: that is occurring concurrently, that we really can't separate physical

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Speaker 1: health and mental health, although many people want to. But

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Speaker 1: I think that as we have these escalating rates of

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Speaker 1: obesity and diabetes, we have escalating rates of a broad

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Speaker 1: range of mental illnesses, neurodevelopmental conditions, mental health conditions, mental disorders,

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Speaker 1: whatever term you like, even though those things mean very

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Speaker 1: different things to a lot of people. We have escalating

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Speaker 1: rates of things like autism, ADHD, anxiety disorders, depression, bipolar disorder,

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Speaker 1: substance use disorders, eating disorders. It's across the board, across

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Speaker 1: a wide range of diagnoses. And the bottom line is

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Speaker 1: that what we're doing to address these chronic diseases isn't working,

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Speaker 1: and we need a paradigm shift.

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Speaker 2: And what are some of the surprising sources of what's

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Speaker 2: happening in the world. I think we all know that

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Speaker 2: social media, in the advancement of technology, has some responsibility.

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Speaker 2: We all know that our lack of movement and lack

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Speaker 2: of connection and isolation has partly a responsibility. But what

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Speaker 2: are some of the more surprising or some of the

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Speaker 2: ones that you think we need to take more serious

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Speaker 2: know of.

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Speaker 1: I think probably for a lot of people, one of

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Speaker 1: the more surprising things for mental health is that the

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Speaker 1: same factors that can play a role in obesity, for example,

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Speaker 1: can also play a role in mental health. And the

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Speaker 1: one that gets overlooked most often is the role of

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Speaker 1: diet or nutrition. You know, if you talk to most

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Speaker 1: psychiatrists or neuroscientists and ask them does diet play a

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Speaker 1: role in mental health, most of them will say probably not.

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Speaker 1: That the brain is just a really complicated organ and

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Speaker 1: there's no way that what we eat nutrition would play

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Speaker 1: a role in something like ADHD or even depression, and

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Speaker 1: certainly not something like bipolar disorder or schizophrenia. By and large,

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Speaker 1: most people in the mental health field believe that those

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Speaker 1: are either genetic biological disorders or they are largely due

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Speaker 1: to psychological and social factors trauma, stress, social adversity, and

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Speaker 1: that those are the causes. But people leave out what

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Speaker 1: we're putting into our mouth every day that actually becomes

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Speaker 1: our brain, becomes the neurotransmitters influences the way every cell

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Speaker 1: in our body functions. And yeah, I just want to

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Speaker 1: point out because this is really difficult for some people

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Speaker 1: to grasp and they think that I'm like making stuff up,

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Speaker 1: or they think that like there's no way that can

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Speaker 1: be or this is highly speculative. This must be speculative.

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Speaker 1: And what I'm here to say is that if you

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Speaker 1: actually do a deep dive into the neuroscience literature and

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Speaker 1: the cell biology literature of the mental health field, you know,

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Speaker 1: researchers have been struggling for decades, actually over a century

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Speaker 1: to figure out what exactly causes mental illness. But numerous

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Speaker 1: lines of evidence have all converged on this thing called metabolism,

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Speaker 1: or metabolic dysfunction in cells appears to come up again

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Speaker 1: and again across a wide range of mental health conditions.

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Speaker 1: In those same metabolic kind of biomarkers or studies come

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Speaker 1: up for things like obesity and diabetes and cardiovascular disease,

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Speaker 1: And in fact, people with those metabolic disorders are more

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Speaker 1: likely to have mental health conditions, and people with mental

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Speaker 1: health conditions are more likely to have metabolic disorders. And

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Speaker 1: so it's really a way to begin to put the

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Speaker 1: science together and more importantly, help people truly heal and recover.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes, what's wrong about our understanding of metabolism as it

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Speaker 2: stands right now?

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Speaker 1: Most people when they hear the word metabolism, they usually

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Speaker 1: think about burning calories, and they think that's what it is.

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Speaker 1: It's just the rate at which we burn casalleies, and

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Speaker 1: that plays a significant role in whether we are fat

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Speaker 1: or thin. Athletes have a slightly more sophisticated understanding and metabolism,

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Speaker 1: so they're in VO two max and some other metrics

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Speaker 1: of metabolism, and that might make them stronger or faster,

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Speaker 1: or have greater endurance so that they can run a marathon,

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Speaker 1: or they can run one hundred miles or whatever they

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Speaker 1: want to do, And all of those things are in

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Speaker 1: fact true. Metabolism is related to burning calories, it is

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Speaker 1: related to athletic performance, but it is so much more

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Speaker 1: than that. A simple way to think about it is

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Speaker 1: it's this foundational process that living organisms use to convert

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Speaker 1: food into energy or building blocks to maintain or grow ourselves.

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Speaker 1: From a biological stance, it's foundational in the definition of

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Speaker 1: a living organism, so it's kind of all encompassing and

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Speaker 1: in that way, the scientists have a hard time arguing

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Speaker 1: with me, because like, well, if you're saying that, then yeah,

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Speaker 1: of course mental illnesses have to somehow be related to that.

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Speaker 1: But I quickly stump them when I start asking them about, well,

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Speaker 1: what about the role of nutrition in that process? And well, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's undeniable that nutrition plays a foundational role in metabolism,

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Speaker 1: So how do you think it's not related to mental illness?

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Speaker 1: And then they're like almost speechless, like, well, wait, you've

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Speaker 1: stumped me. That's no, it can't be that simple, And

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Speaker 1: in reality, it is. It is that simple, and when

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Speaker 1: you really understand the details of it, we can help

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Speaker 1: even people with severe crippling mental illnesses. So most people

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Speaker 1: don't have a problem thinking that diet might play a

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Speaker 1: role in mild anxiety or mild depression. Most people kind

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Speaker 1: of get that. A lot of parents aren't too surprised

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Speaker 1: that diet or nutrition might play a role in ADHD

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Speaker 1: for examp, all that sugar and processed foods and artificial

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Speaker 1: dyes and everything else in our food supply. I think

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Speaker 1: a lot of them aren't shocked. They're not in disbelief

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Speaker 1: that that might play a role in the way a

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Speaker 1: child's brain functions, and those things are true, but I'm

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Speaker 1: also talking about the severe crippling mental illnesses, including things

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Speaker 1: like schizophrenia and bipolar disorder. It's all of them. They're

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Speaker 1: all interrelated, and they all relate to metabolism.

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Speaker 2: Let's look at it from a macro viewpoint before we

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Speaker 2: go into the micro. When I started learning about a

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Speaker 2: very basic level of some of these things, what's really

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Speaker 2: in processed foods, and what's really going into genetically modified foods,

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Speaker 2: and how things are being processed, even at a very

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Speaker 2: basic level, I was shocked to believe that we could

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Speaker 2: get away with putting this stuff into food, Like it's remarkable,

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Speaker 2: especially when I looked at the standards of the FDA

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Speaker 2: versus some of the standards in the UK, where they're

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Speaker 2: a lot higher. In the UK. I'm not saying they're perfect,

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Speaker 2: but when I came to America, I just saw like

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Speaker 2: you didn't even you know, it felt like you could

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Speaker 2: just put anything on the back of a pack, or

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Speaker 2: maybe even skip a few things and people wouldn't be aware.

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Speaker 2: How did we get that far? Like, how did we

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Speaker 2: get so far away from creating things that are actually

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Speaker 2: good for people? Or at least not bad for them.

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Speaker 1: It's actually almost somewhat unbelievable that this is the state

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Speaker 1: of affairs, and most a lot of people, if they're

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Speaker 1: not really aware of this field, will think that the

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Speaker 1: conversation that we're about to have or that we're beginning

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Speaker 1: to have sounds like a conspiracy theory. Yeah, like, it

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Speaker 1: can't be that bad. The government is looking out for us.

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Speaker 1: We have the Food and Drug Administration. They're ensuring that

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Speaker 1: our food is safe. Why are you raising alarms? Why

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Speaker 1: are you scaring people with this nonsense. Of course, everything

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Speaker 1: they put in food is safe and it's been thoroughly

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Speaker 1: and rigorously tested. To those people who are saying, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's yeah, yeah, don't be conspiracy theorists people like, don't

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Speaker 1: try to scare us for no reason. I want to

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Speaker 1: let you know about, you know, a journal article that

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Speaker 1: just appeared in the New England Journal of Medicine, which

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Speaker 1: is one of the most prestigious medical journals in the

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Speaker 1: United States at least and arguably in the world. And

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Speaker 1: it just appeared in the journal a couple of months ago,

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Speaker 1: and it was about the lax oversight of chemicals and

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Speaker 1: food additives in the food supply in the United States,

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Speaker 1: and in fact, about two years ago, there was an

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Speaker 1: artificial ingredient called tara flower. It sounds so innocent, right,

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Speaker 1: It sounds beautiful, like tara must be like a flower

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Speaker 1: and you grind it up or who knows, who knows?

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Speaker 1: It sounds lovely?

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Speaker 2: It is.

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Speaker 1: They added this to a new product, a beef substitute,

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Speaker 1: and in fact, over four hundred people around the United

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Speaker 1: States were hospitalized, many of them with liver failure really

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Speaker 1: because of this product. And the FDA began an investigation

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Speaker 1: when they started recognizing a lot of people who are

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Speaker 1: eating this food are getting sick, and they looked for

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Speaker 1: the usual suspects. Initially, they looked for bacterial infections or contamination.

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Speaker 1: They looked for you know, lead poisoning or mercury or

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Speaker 1: something some contaminant in the food, and they couldn't find anything.

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Speaker 1: And they continued their investigation and then at some point

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Speaker 1: they had to start going through the ingredient list, and

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Speaker 1: then they came across this innocent sounding thing called teraflower,

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Speaker 1: and they had to ask, well, what exactly is this

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Speaker 1: And they went to the manufacturer what is it? And

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Speaker 1: they said, oh, that's a new thing that we just added.

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Speaker 1: And here's the kicker. The manufacturer was allowed to declare

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Speaker 1: for themselves that it was safe. The FDA doesn't rigorously

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Speaker 1: test these new chemicals that get added to our food.

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Speaker 1: They really rely on the manufacturers. It's an honor system

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Speaker 1: right now in the United States. It's an honor system

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Speaker 1: that we are supposed to trust the manufacturers that if

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Speaker 1: they decide that they want to create a new chemical

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Speaker 1: and add it to our food and call it an

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Speaker 1: additive or call it an emulsifier or a food coloring

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Speaker 1: or whatever they want to do, they are not absolutely

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Speaker 1: required to rigorously test it. Instead, they can simply declare

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Speaker 1: that we consider this generally recognized as safe or grass,

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Speaker 1: with no requirement of proof that it in fact is safe.

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Speaker 1: And again, that sounds outrageous, it sounds unbelievable. And yet

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Speaker 1: the FDA just conducted an investigation two years ago and

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Speaker 1: concluded that this manufacturer included that stuff. When you actually

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Speaker 1: start to pull back the curtain, it's horrifying. It's horrifying.

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Speaker 1: About ten thousand chemicals are in the US food supply,

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Speaker 1: and many of them have not been rigorously tested for safety,

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Speaker 1: like liver failure safety. Let alone. And here's the kicker,

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Speaker 1: and here's the really kind of terrifying thing. Let alone,

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Speaker 1: What impact do these molecules have on human metabolism or

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Speaker 1: the human brain. We don't know. No one knows because

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Speaker 1: nobody's bothered to ask that question, and nobody's bothered to

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Speaker 1: do the research. So that becomes a likely culprit in

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Speaker 1: this chronic disease epidemic, that we're allowing manufacturers to just

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Speaker 1: put all sorts of stuff into our food without testing it.

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Speaker 1: And it's certainly one of the lower hanging obvious choices,

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Speaker 1: and in terms of what might be driving our chronic

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Speaker 1: disease epidemic.

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Speaker 2: It's remarkable when you hear it from that perspective of

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Speaker 2: the idea that we're all putting things into our body,

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Speaker 2: trusting that they've been tested, or at least being hopeful

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Speaker 2: that someone's thought about them being good for us, and

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Speaker 2: not only have they not been tested, they've been added

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Speaker 2: in without much prior thought or research or checking. And

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Speaker 2: it's so hard because you look at so many people

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Speaker 2: who are struggling today, and people naturally I think put

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Speaker 2: you know, take responsibility, and they think, God, I need

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Speaker 2: to be better or I need to lose weight, or

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Speaker 2: I need to build muscle, or whatever it is that

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Speaker 2: they want to do. But it almost seems like the

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Speaker 2: systems set up against them. We've been conditioned and hardwired

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Speaker 2: since we've been young eating these products. The chemicals have

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Speaker 2: got into our bodies, and of course it's harder to

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Speaker 2: break that habit. So I feel so much empathy and

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Speaker 2: compassion for anyone who is struggling right now with their health,

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Speaker 2: because it's partly not their fault.

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Speaker 1: I actually think in most cases, in almost all cases,

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Speaker 1: it's not their fault that they were children at some

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Speaker 1: point and their parents were feeding them what they thought

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Speaker 1: was healthy food and what they are were being told

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Speaker 1: by the US Dietary Guideline Committee are healthy foods, and

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Speaker 1: what they're still being told are healthy foods. You know,

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Speaker 1: the US Dietary guidelines to date don't mention ultra processed foods.

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Speaker 1: They don't mention all of these artificial ingredients because the

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Speaker 1: assumption is they don't matter. The assumption is, just make

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Speaker 1: sure you get enough calories, try to minimize saturated fat,

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Speaker 1: maybe minimize sugar. Somewhat less than ten percent of your

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Speaker 1: calories from sugar, just a lot. Still, Yeah, ten percent

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Speaker 1: of your nutrition from Sugar's a lot of sugar. But

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Speaker 1: they don't even mention the impact of these other substances

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Speaker 1: on human health. And you know, in their defense, I

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Speaker 1: think thirty years ago, nobody seemed to be aware of

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Speaker 1: much of this. There were very few people, if any,

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Speaker 1: who were really rigorously researching this and really fully understood

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Speaker 1: what is this. But now we have more than ample

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Speaker 1: evidence epidemiological evidence, basic science evidence, animal studies, all sorts

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Speaker 1: of things, numerous lines of evidence to all support this

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Speaker 1: conclusion that these foods are bad for us. And I

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Speaker 1: think again, the thing that I really want to drill

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Speaker 1: home for people is that they affect human health broadly.

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Speaker 1: Yes they play a role in overweight or obesity. Yes

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Speaker 1: they play a role in heart disease. Yes they play

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Speaker 1: a role in diabetes and blood sugars. But let's not

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Speaker 1: forget the brain. That's the tricky thing, because what I'm

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Speaker 1: arguing is that in the same way that eating these

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Speaker 1: foods are too much of these foods can drive your

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Speaker 1: heart to actually become pathologically compromised to the point of

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Speaker 1: you potentially having a heart attack. It can cause your

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Speaker 1: liver to fill up with fat, which impairs its function.

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Speaker 1: It can cause kidney problems, it can cause immune system dysfunction.

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Speaker 1: In the way that all of those different organs are

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Speaker 1: beginning to malfunction. The confusing thing to a lot of

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Speaker 1: people is the brain, because when the brain malfunctions, it's

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Speaker 1: usually subtle, and it starts for most people in the

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Speaker 1: form of things like brain fog or a lack of motivation,

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Speaker 1: or depressed mood, or mild anxiety symptoms or inattention like

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Speaker 1: those are the types of things that most people experience,

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Speaker 1: and those, of course are ubiquitous symptoms today in society.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you look at the rates of burnout. For example,

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Speaker 1: we have record rates of burnout, and most people would

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Speaker 1: never even associate burnout with their metabolic health, let alone

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Speaker 1: with what they're putting into their mouth every day. And

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Speaker 1: what I'm saying, I'm not trying to exonerate the workplace completely.

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Speaker 1: So yes, many of us are overworked. Yes, many of

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Speaker 1: us are going twenty four to seven. Yes, many of

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Speaker 1: our bosses now expect us to respond to emails at

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Speaker 1: midnight because there's a crisis at work or whatever. And yes,

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Speaker 1: that is extraordinarily stressful. That is absolutely playing a role

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Speaker 1: and burnout, but so too is the actual physical health

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Speaker 1: of our brain. And the reason I can say that

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Speaker 1: so confidently is because I've had numerous, countless people who

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Speaker 1: have done things like change their diet or begun exercising,

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Speaker 1: or prioritize sleep or just taking themselves off of their

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Speaker 1: screen for so much, and their burnout evaporates. Their work

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Speaker 1: situation doesn't change one bit, but their tolerance for it

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Speaker 1: changes immensely, and all of a sudden, they go from

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Speaker 1: somebody who feels like I can't keep up. I can't

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Speaker 1: keep up. I'm never good enough. I just can't do

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Speaker 1: this much work. They're being too hard on me too.

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Speaker 1: Why was I so stressed by this? This actually isn't

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Speaker 1: that difficult. I'm resilient, I'm smart, I'm efficient. My brain

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Speaker 1: is on fire. My brain is like I just got

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Speaker 1: that report done in one hour and two months ago,

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Speaker 1: it took me two days to do that report. No

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Speaker 1: wonder I was so burned out. Yeah, it took me

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Speaker 1: two days to do the report when it really should

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Speaker 1: have only taken me an hour to do it. And

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Speaker 1: so when you bring people's brains back online, a whole

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Speaker 1: new world opens.

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Speaker 2: Up, you know, hearing that resonates so strongly for me

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Speaker 2: because I feel that for so many of us, we

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Speaker 2: know that it's very unlikely there'll be a day soon

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Speaker 2: enough that our workload will diminish, right if you're waiting

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Speaker 2: for that day for your work to reduce and the

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Speaker 2: workload to go down, kind of that's what stresses us out,

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Speaker 2: is knowing that that day isn't going to come, and

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Speaker 2: this idea of what you just said that actually, but

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Speaker 2: when you work on all these things, your tolerance grows,

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Speaker 2: and your ability to deal with that level of stress

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Speaker 2: and pressure grows, and your resilience grows, And it reminds

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Speaker 2: me a couple of years back, maybe even a bit

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Speaker 2: longer now, I remember I had a choice, and I

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Speaker 2: saw the choice very consciously. I either had to slow

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Speaker 2: down or I had to up level my health because

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Speaker 2: I was working more than ever, I was working harder

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Speaker 2: than ever, and I didn't want to slow down because

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Speaker 2: I love what I do and I'm really grateful I

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Speaker 2: get to do what I do. But I saw that

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Speaker 2: if I didn't improve my health drastically, taking into account sleep,

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Speaker 2: diret meditation, working out, exercise, then there was no way

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Speaker 2: I could keep up it was going to be downhill.

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Speaker 2: And having made all those changes, not that I've perfected them,

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Speaker 2: and I'm still in the process of always iterating and

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Speaker 2: trying to get better at all of them and strengthen

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Speaker 2: different parts. But I found myself having a much greater

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Speaker 2: capacity than I ever imagined of what my body and

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Speaker 2: mind are capable of doing. And again, I'm grateful. I

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Speaker 2: am lucky I get to do what I love. So

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Speaker 2: there's that element, for sure that makes a big difference.

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Speaker 2: But what you're saying is so true that my resilience

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Speaker 2: and my tolerance for the amount of what I do

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Speaker 2: is far greater than it would have been. And so

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Speaker 2: I loved that We're not living in this fake land

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Speaker 2: of oh, yeah, there'll be a day when you know

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Speaker 2: you'll only have to do fifty percent of that report. No,

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Speaker 2: you're still gonna have to do that report, but maybe

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Speaker 2: it won't stress you out as much.

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Speaker 1: In one way, this comes down to something that seems

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Speaker 1: so obvious when you say it, it's like everybody's like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: we've heard that a million times. That's so cliche, like

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Speaker 1: it doesn't really mean anything. And that is self care

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Speaker 1: that if you're working really hard, it's actually even more

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Speaker 1: important that you take time out to meditate or to

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Speaker 1: prepare a healthful meal instead of grabbing junk food already prepared,

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Speaker 1: ultra processed. It's even more important that you take enough

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Speaker 1: time to get adequate sleep, even though you feel like

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Speaker 1: you're on a treadmill and you can't keep up. By

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Speaker 1: not sleeping, you're slowing down your brain capacity the next day,

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Speaker 1: and now you get even further behind in your work,

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Speaker 1: and then you feel the need to stay up even

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Speaker 1: later trying to catch up, and now you're even more

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Speaker 1: sleep deprived, and now your brain is really not firing

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Speaker 1: on all cylinders. So the sound by recommendation is self care.

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Speaker 1: And everybody's like, yeah, we've heard that a million times.

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Speaker 1: That's so worthless. Don't tell us something we haven't heard.

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Speaker 1: And yet so many Americans and people around the world

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Speaker 1: are getting trapped in these vicious cycles where they're not

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Speaker 1: doing it. I think that when we take enough time,

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Speaker 1: it's not even take time to slow down. Because I

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Speaker 1: love what you just said. I want people to live

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Speaker 1: life with vigor. I want people to have passion. There

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Speaker 1: are so many problems in the world. We need people

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Speaker 1: to be passionate and like step up and like be there.

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Speaker 1: Be there for your be there for other people, be

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Speaker 1: there for your family, be there for your friends. That

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Speaker 1: means doing stuff. It doesn't mean slowing down and watching

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Speaker 1: Netflix all night. It means doing stuff, but make sure

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Speaker 1: that you're doing enough self care so that that engine

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Speaker 1: can keep running and so that that passion remains.

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Speaker 2: Do you feel the right people were in the room

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Speaker 2: that day who heard you that can make a change.

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Speaker 2: Where do you feel the change from a macro level

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Speaker 2: needs to come from. And do you think we're in

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Speaker 2: a phase where we're going to go into that change

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Speaker 2: or do you not feel hopeful?

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Speaker 1: It ends up getting really complicated, especially in terms of

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Speaker 1: the politics, because you know, we had an election, and

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Speaker 1: I've spoken with a couple of reporters who actually said

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Speaker 1: that roundtable discussion really put the make America Healthy Again

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Speaker 1: movement on fire and really allowed it to spread. The

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Speaker 1: reality is that we have a new incoming administration. I

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Speaker 1: want to just say for the record, I fully recognize

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Speaker 1: how politically divisive the election has been, how some people

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Speaker 1: are not at all happy about the election results. Some

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Speaker 1: people are terrified what's going to happen. Some people are

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Speaker 1: angry I'm hearing from those people all the time, and

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Speaker 1: yet I want to say that there are opportunities as well.

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Speaker 1: And I think that right now, especially in healthcare and

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Speaker 1: the national institutes of health, that there are going to

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Speaker 1: be some disruptive changes coming. Time will tell whether that

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Speaker 1: ends up being a good thing or a bad thing.

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Speaker 1: And the thing that I'm most hopeful about is that

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Speaker 1: a national conversation has been gone. And just the other

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Speaker 1: day we had Senate hearings largely with Democrats, and we

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Speaker 1: heard from staunch liberal Democrats like Corey Booker and Bernie

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Speaker 1: Sanders and others who were having the exact same conversations

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Speaker 1: that we had in that Conservative Republican Senate roundtable discussion.

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Speaker 1: And I think.

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Speaker 2: That is.

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Speaker 1: Hopeful because despite the political animosities, and despite all the

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Speaker 1: things that we are going to disagree on, make no

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Speaker 1: more stake. Like people, sometimes you ask me, like, what

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Speaker 1: side do you take? I don't take a side. I'm

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Speaker 1: a human being with complex perspectives on a lot of

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Speaker 1: different issues. I don't think there's one human being on

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Speaker 1: the planet that I would say I agree on everything with, So.

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Speaker 2: It's pretty wise.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So I am going to have my own sometimes

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Speaker 1: very strong opinions on different issues, but what we can

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Speaker 1: all agree on is that there is this chronic disease epidemic,

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Speaker 1: that it is primarily metabolic health disorders and mental health disorders,

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Speaker 1: and we need to put together that science and once

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Speaker 1: and for all, we need to start doing something about it,

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Speaker 1: and that includes taking on corporate corruption that is largely

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Speaker 1: playing a role in this. To come back like concretely,

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Speaker 1: what does that mean? To come back to what we

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Speaker 1: just talked about a little bit ago, manufacturers should not

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Speaker 1: be allowed to introduce brand new chemicals into food that

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Speaker 1: is sold in the United States without rigorous testing. Why

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Speaker 1: on earth does anybody think that's a good idea. We

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Speaker 1: have more than enough chemicals to choose from that are

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Speaker 1: already not tested, so we got a lot of work

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Speaker 1: to do to try to catch up. But why do

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Speaker 1: we need even more new ones? We don't for sure

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Speaker 1: for sure?

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Speaker 2: Switching to the more micro how do we know if

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Speaker 2: metabolism is healthy or unhealthy? How do we feed it?

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Speaker 2: You know?

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Speaker 1: So I'm really focused on the brain effects, and unfortunately

436
00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:33,960
Speaker 1: there are not objective tests that people can go out

437
00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:40,640
Speaker 1: and get, so you really do have to just subjectively

438
00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:46,640
Speaker 1: think through how's my mood, how's my anxiety, How's my

439
00:28:47,040 --> 00:28:52,080
Speaker 1: ability to sleep? How's my use of substances? How are

440
00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:55,680
Speaker 1: my relationships? How do I interact with others? Am I

441
00:28:55,760 --> 00:29:01,200
Speaker 1: having panic attacks? Any of those things, especially when they're

442
00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:05,080
Speaker 1: occurring for no clear reason, should be at least warning

443
00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:09,480
Speaker 1: signs that you may have impaired metabolism somehow or another

444
00:29:09,520 --> 00:29:13,080
Speaker 1: impacting your brain. The good news is that there are

445
00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:16,280
Speaker 1: some concrete biomarkers that we can all use, and those

446
00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:20,120
Speaker 1: are usually the biomarkers for what we call metabolic syndrome.

447
00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:29,600
Speaker 1: And those biomarkers include low HDL cholesterol, high triglycerides, high

448
00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:33,880
Speaker 1: blood sugar so pre diabetes, insulin resistance whatever it gets called,

449
00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:40,640
Speaker 1: high blood pressure, and then abdominal obesity or extra abdominal fat.

450
00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:44,360
Speaker 1: The shocking news for any of your listeners who don't

451
00:29:44,400 --> 00:29:51,880
Speaker 1: know this is that ninety three percent of Americans currently

452
00:29:51,920 --> 00:29:59,440
Speaker 1: have one or more abnormalities among those biomarkers, leaving the

453
00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:03,440
Speaker 1: brain out of it. In order to be considered metabolically healthy,

454
00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:07,480
Speaker 1: you would have to have none of those five biomarkers,

455
00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:12,760
Speaker 1: and only seven percent of American adults currently gets that.

456
00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:19,320
Speaker 1: So unfortunately, this really is an epidemic, a chronic disease,

457
00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:22,720
Speaker 1: epidemic of metabolic and mental health dysfunction.

458
00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:26,120
Speaker 2: Let's say people are experiencing those things as you mentioned,

459
00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:32,440
Speaker 2: so fluctuation in mood, they're experiencing brain fog, they're experiencing

460
00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:35,000
Speaker 2: low energy. Where should they start?

461
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:38,120
Speaker 1: The basics that I think people can really do on

462
00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:41,760
Speaker 1: their own, And I'll start there. And I just want

463
00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:43,800
Speaker 1: to say, as a caveat, because I'm a psychiatrist who

464
00:30:43,840 --> 00:30:47,080
Speaker 1: treats like schizophrenia, bipolar and so those those parents are

465
00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:50,680
Speaker 1: listening to me, like, don't give me this fluff, don't

466
00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:53,520
Speaker 1: like give me the risk that often we can get

467
00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:57,960
Speaker 1: to that, but for the overwhelming majority of adults and

468
00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:02,840
Speaker 1: even children, I would say it breaks into the six

469
00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:05,960
Speaker 1: pillars of what we call lifestyle medicine. And so we're

470
00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:10,480
Speaker 1: going to look at diet, nutrition, movement, or exercise, sleep,

471
00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:15,080
Speaker 1: minimizing or reducing harmful substances if you happen to use

472
00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:20,480
Speaker 1: any of them, stress reduction practices like meditation or mindfulness,

473
00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:25,800
Speaker 1: and then usually that six bucket. People will talk about

474
00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:30,320
Speaker 1: relationships on purpose. I like to broaden it to purpose,

475
00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:34,160
Speaker 1: and I think that's one of the primary roles is

476
00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:36,240
Speaker 1: certainly not the only, but one of the primary roles

477
00:31:36,240 --> 00:31:40,560
Speaker 1: that relationships serve. So I kind of say relationships slash purpose.

478
00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:44,520
Speaker 1: So all of your listeners are already all over purpose

479
00:31:45,160 --> 00:31:50,840
Speaker 1: and relationships and meditation and mindfulness reducing harmful substances. It's

480
00:31:50,920 --> 00:31:57,280
Speaker 1: pretty obvious. I'm talking about alcohol, marijuana, smoking, vaping, those

481
00:31:57,360 --> 00:32:00,000
Speaker 1: kind of things. So those are not good for you,

482
00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:02,719
Speaker 1: no matter what you've heard, no matter who said this

483
00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:05,200
Speaker 1: vape is really good for you, It's really not good.

484
00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:06,640
Speaker 2: Why is it good? What's it doing?

485
00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:09,280
Speaker 1: So it depends on what's in the vape. But we

486
00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:14,680
Speaker 1: are actually not designed to inhale chemicals into our lungs. Interesting,

487
00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:18,320
Speaker 1: other lungs are not supposed to have this vape chemical

488
00:32:18,880 --> 00:32:21,600
Speaker 1: in them. And you know, there have been extreme examples

489
00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:25,880
Speaker 1: where people actually develop life threatening kind of pneumonia type

490
00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:32,000
Speaker 1: situations from possibly contaminated vapes. But we know from long

491
00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:36,600
Speaker 1: term studies that people who are vaping are more likely

492
00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:40,360
Speaker 1: to still have health conditions. On that specific topic, if

493
00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:45,240
Speaker 1: somebody is smoking tobacco and they can't stop smoking tobacco,

494
00:32:46,280 --> 00:32:49,640
Speaker 1: is vaping better for them? Yes, it is better for them.

495
00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:54,000
Speaker 1: So if you're moving from smoking cigarettes, you cannot quit,

496
00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:58,719
Speaker 1: but maybe you could just vape instead of smoking cigarettes.

497
00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:01,920
Speaker 1: Then go ahead, start vaping, But then at some point

498
00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:04,479
Speaker 1: I want you to stop vaping because vaping's not healthy

499
00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:07,400
Speaker 1: for you. And then it really depends on the substance

500
00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:10,840
Speaker 1: that it's in it, because people are vaping THCHC, they're

501
00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:14,480
Speaker 1: vaping nicotine, they're vaping all sorts of things. And the

502
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:19,960
Speaker 1: tragic news is even when people switch from smoking cigarettes

503
00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:26,080
Speaker 1: to vaping nicotine, more often than not, the nicotine concentrations

504
00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:31,120
Speaker 1: are stratospheric compared to what they were smoking, and so

505
00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:34,560
Speaker 1: they end up getting even more addicted to nicotine than

506
00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:39,400
Speaker 1: they ever had been. And now they really can't stop.

507
00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:41,320
Speaker 2: What's marijuana doing to the brain.

508
00:33:41,800 --> 00:33:44,520
Speaker 1: Marijuana actually has a lot of constituents. If you're talking

509
00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:46,640
Speaker 1: about the whole plant, it's got a lot of different

510
00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:52,760
Speaker 1: chemicals in it. Some that might be neutral, some will

511
00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:56,880
Speaker 1: argue might be beneficial. CBD is the most commonly couted

512
00:33:56,920 --> 00:33:59,720
Speaker 1: one that might have some benefits for people. I think

513
00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:03,080
Speaker 1: what we can unequivocally say is that THCHC is bad

514
00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:07,000
Speaker 1: for the human brain. So THCHC does a lot of

515
00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:12,800
Speaker 1: different things. It's interacting with these receptors throughout our brain

516
00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:16,160
Speaker 1: and body. It makes your heart rate go up. You know,

517
00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:20,160
Speaker 1: central to my some of my science work is it

518
00:34:20,160 --> 00:34:24,960
Speaker 1: can impair mitochondrial function. So these tiny things in our

519
00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:27,960
Speaker 1: cells called mitochondria, it can impair their ability to function.

520
00:34:28,880 --> 00:34:31,200
Speaker 1: And at the end of the day, the end result

521
00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:34,600
Speaker 1: is that we know that people who smoke a lot

522
00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:38,440
Speaker 1: of marijuana will have cognitive impairment. They will have impairment

523
00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:41,680
Speaker 1: and motivation. Now, this is probably not a shock to

524
00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:46,760
Speaker 1: most people. So imagine the teenage boy in his parents'

525
00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:52,640
Speaker 1: basement playing video games all day smoking weed. He's less

526
00:34:52,680 --> 00:34:56,880
Speaker 1: than motivated, and he's relaxed about it. He's not bothered

527
00:34:57,160 --> 00:35:00,360
Speaker 1: that he's not doing a lot, he's not bob that

528
00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:03,799
Speaker 1: his brain doesn't work all that great because he's relaxed.

529
00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:08,000
Speaker 1: Not a great way to go through life, and certainly

530
00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:11,040
Speaker 1: not a great way to have purpose in your life

531
00:35:11,080 --> 00:35:16,040
Speaker 1: and relationships and everything else. But more importantly, it can

532
00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:20,280
Speaker 1: impair brain function over time. And the most striking evidence

533
00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:24,680
Speaker 1: that we have is that THCHC can increase risk for psychosis.

534
00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:27,960
Speaker 1: And we know that from animal models. So you can

535
00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:31,439
Speaker 1: take an animal that has no choice and whether they're

536
00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:34,239
Speaker 1: getting something or not, we can give them THHC and

537
00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:41,520
Speaker 1: they can develop severe brain conditions like conditions. We have

538
00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:45,320
Speaker 1: a lot of human data, more epidemiological data, because we

539
00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:48,920
Speaker 1: can't do a randomized controlled trial of a thousand kids

540
00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:51,560
Speaker 1: and have half of them smoke marijuana every day and

541
00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:54,160
Speaker 1: half of them not. That would never be approved by

542
00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:57,160
Speaker 1: an ethics board. So instead we have to look at

543
00:35:57,160 --> 00:35:59,759
Speaker 1: people who are smoking versus not smoking and seeing are

544
00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:04,600
Speaker 1: they more likely to develop psychotic disorders, And in fact,

545
00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:07,279
Speaker 1: it seems that they're probably about four times more likely

546
00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:11,279
Speaker 1: to develop something like schizophrenia or bipolar disorder than people

547
00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:18,120
Speaker 1: who don't. So marijuana not good. Alcohol, similar kind of story.

548
00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:21,720
Speaker 1: Not good for your brain, not good for metabolic health.

549
00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:27,240
Speaker 1: You know, I think most people probably know the exercise recommendation.

550
00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:31,640
Speaker 1: Move try to build muscle, like even if you're a

551
00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:36,319
Speaker 1: couch potato right now and really overweight. Just anything. Walk

552
00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:39,800
Speaker 1: around your living room, do some squats, do one or

553
00:36:39,800 --> 00:36:44,280
Speaker 1: two jumping, give like anything. Just start somewhere, and then

554
00:36:44,719 --> 00:36:47,160
Speaker 1: I would probably encourage people to try to get outside

555
00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:50,080
Speaker 1: if they're really new to movement, try to go outside

556
00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:56,399
Speaker 1: because you're getting like multiple interventions at that point, you're

557
00:36:56,400 --> 00:36:59,040
Speaker 1: getting away from a screen, So don't walk outside with

558
00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:01,640
Speaker 1: your cell phone in front of your face, walk outside

559
00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:06,000
Speaker 1: and just enjoy nature, like try to be mindful of

560
00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:08,839
Speaker 1: your environment. Even if you're in the city, you can

561
00:37:08,880 --> 00:37:11,200
Speaker 1: still look at the sky and see the clouds, or

562
00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:15,280
Speaker 1: look at what trees might be around, or any little

563
00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:19,200
Speaker 1: corner park or something. So that can become an intervention

564
00:37:19,440 --> 00:37:22,840
Speaker 1: where now you're getting some sunlight, Now you're out in nature.

565
00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:27,000
Speaker 1: Now you're practicing some mindfulness as you're moving your legs

566
00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:30,960
Speaker 1: and walking around. You're getting away from screens for at

567
00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:33,279
Speaker 1: least a little bit of time, and that can give

568
00:37:33,320 --> 00:37:36,560
Speaker 1: your brain a break. So lots of ways to do

569
00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:40,040
Speaker 1: movement all the way up to do CrossFit, go run

570
00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:45,840
Speaker 1: a marathon, like whatever you want to do. And then nutrition. Honestly,

571
00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:52,360
Speaker 1: nutrition is the most complicated story. And I think the

572
00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:54,600
Speaker 1: first thing that I want to just say for everyone

573
00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:57,160
Speaker 1: is that there's not a one size fits all nutrition

574
00:37:57,480 --> 00:38:02,600
Speaker 1: strategy for all humans. Is that because different humans have

575
00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:10,080
Speaker 1: different sensitivities, allergies, preferences, they have different gut microbiota, they

576
00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:14,400
Speaker 1: have different genetics and epigenetics that they inherited from their parents.

577
00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:18,080
Speaker 1: They have all sorts of differences, and so some people

578
00:38:18,080 --> 00:38:20,200
Speaker 1: are going to do really well on one type of diet.

579
00:38:20,560 --> 00:38:24,640
Speaker 1: Some people might do really great with whole grain foods,

580
00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:30,040
Speaker 1: and others might have gluten insensitivity in the extreme form

581
00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:33,320
Speaker 1: Celiac disease, and that person is going to do horribly

582
00:38:33,719 --> 00:38:37,239
Speaker 1: with whole grain foods. And so there's no one size

583
00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:39,600
Speaker 1: fits all. Other people might do great with nuts, other

584
00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:42,560
Speaker 1: people might have fatal allergies to nuts. We just have

585
00:38:42,640 --> 00:38:46,560
Speaker 1: to acknowledge people are different. And that's one of the

586
00:38:46,600 --> 00:38:50,480
Speaker 1: things that I'm always challenged by in even like podcasts

587
00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:53,120
Speaker 1: or interviews, is people are like, well, give me the

588
00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:55,560
Speaker 1: three recommendations for everyone, and it's like.

589
00:38:55,520 --> 00:38:57,040
Speaker 2: Well, it's not it's not possible.

590
00:38:57,120 --> 00:39:00,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, unfortunately, So I want to say it it's not

591
00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:04,560
Speaker 1: that simple, but I don't want people to hear that

592
00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:08,399
Speaker 1: phrase it's not that simple and hear it as it's impossible.

593
00:39:08,480 --> 00:39:12,480
Speaker 1: Therefore it's impossible. It's not impossible. It's not rocket science.

594
00:39:13,040 --> 00:39:15,279
Speaker 1: You just have to know a little bit and you

595
00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:17,440
Speaker 1: just have to be willing to experiment a little bit.

596
00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:21,399
Speaker 1: I think the universal principle that I usually recommend very

597
00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:24,320
Speaker 1: appropriate based on all of the stuff that we've already

598
00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:27,320
Speaker 1: discussed about ultra processed foods is eat real whole foods

599
00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:33,440
Speaker 1: that your great grandparents may have seen on their table

600
00:39:33,960 --> 00:39:39,840
Speaker 1: on a plate somewhere somehow, and you can process them yourselves.

601
00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:44,440
Speaker 1: You can make them into stews or dishes or whatever.

602
00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:47,600
Speaker 1: I mean. You can mash the potatoes, if you're into

603
00:39:47,640 --> 00:39:51,000
Speaker 1: mashed potatoes, you can. You can do all sorts of

604
00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:53,560
Speaker 1: things with your food. And I'm not at all opposed

605
00:39:53,560 --> 00:39:58,160
Speaker 1: to making your food delicious with adding spices and other

606
00:39:58,239 --> 00:40:02,480
Speaker 1: things to it. Those are all real whole foods as

607
00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:04,719
Speaker 1: opposed to the things that you buy in a plastic

608
00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:09,400
Speaker 1: bag from the grocery store that have several ingredients that

609
00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:11,160
Speaker 1: you have no idea how to pronounce.

610
00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:13,759
Speaker 2: The foods in the actual makeup of our diet will

611
00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:17,960
Speaker 2: look different for everyone because we're so different. But what

612
00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:20,440
Speaker 2: do we need to know then about mark is like information?

613
00:40:20,680 --> 00:40:22,560
Speaker 2: I think those are the things that are more common, right.

614
00:40:22,600 --> 00:40:25,440
Speaker 2: You mentioned there mitochondria as well. It's like, these are

615
00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:27,759
Speaker 2: the things that are parts of us that we need

616
00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:30,680
Speaker 2: to understand more deeply and then that will help us

617
00:40:30,719 --> 00:40:32,360
Speaker 2: figure out, well, what foods are right for us and

618
00:40:32,400 --> 00:40:34,080
Speaker 2: those that are not. Is that accurate?

619
00:40:34,719 --> 00:40:38,400
Speaker 1: I think it is accurate. And I think about diet

620
00:40:38,480 --> 00:40:46,239
Speaker 1: and nutrition in actually really complex ways. Most people think

621
00:40:46,280 --> 00:40:51,640
Speaker 1: about it as making sure you get enough nutritious stuff

622
00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:55,480
Speaker 1: to promote health. So the most commonly used term is

623
00:40:55,600 --> 00:41:00,160
Speaker 1: nutrient dense foods. Eat nutrient dense foods and you'll be good.

624
00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:03,759
Speaker 1: And what's wrong with ultraprocessed foods, Well, nothing really is

625
00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:10,040
Speaker 1: wrong with them, but they are nutrient deficient. You're just

626
00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:14,719
Speaker 1: eating calories without the good nutrients that you need. And

627
00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:17,440
Speaker 1: so some dieticians will even say that, go ahead and

628
00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:20,160
Speaker 1: eat all the ultra process foods you want, but then

629
00:41:20,360 --> 00:41:24,080
Speaker 1: throw in some broccoli here and there. Unfortunately, that's not

630
00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:26,480
Speaker 1: going to work. So there is a need for nutrition.

631
00:41:26,760 --> 00:41:30,240
Speaker 1: There is a need for nutrients for all the different

632
00:41:30,320 --> 00:41:34,200
Speaker 1: vitamins and adequate amount of protein and other things that

633
00:41:34,239 --> 00:41:41,880
Speaker 1: we need. Yes, that's true, but diet and dietary interventions

634
00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:44,399
Speaker 1: can be so much more than that. Some people may

635
00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:47,640
Speaker 1: benefit from losing weight, in which we want to come

636
00:41:47,719 --> 00:41:50,120
Speaker 1: up with strategies to help them accomplish that. Other people

637
00:41:51,239 --> 00:41:58,600
Speaker 1: can actually be metabolically compromised because they are malnourished or underweight.

638
00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:03,880
Speaker 1: So think of somebody with anorexionervosa or a cancer patient

639
00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:10,000
Speaker 1: with severe, unrelenting depression, who can't eat or just has

640
00:42:10,160 --> 00:42:13,920
Speaker 1: completely lost his appetite and is nauseous all the time

641
00:42:14,520 --> 00:42:17,880
Speaker 1: and is now starving to death. Really, for all intents

642
00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:21,920
Speaker 1: and purposes, I would actually argue that they too have

643
00:42:22,120 --> 00:42:26,120
Speaker 1: a metabolic problem, but it's malnutrition. It's a lack of

644
00:42:27,080 --> 00:42:31,080
Speaker 1: essential nutrients. And so the intervention for those people is

645
00:42:31,200 --> 00:42:34,000
Speaker 1: eat more. We need to replenish your stores. We need

646
00:42:34,040 --> 00:42:37,040
Speaker 1: to get you to have a calorie surplus if possible.

647
00:42:37,680 --> 00:42:40,520
Speaker 1: So right there, I just mentioned two polar opposite interventions.

648
00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:43,680
Speaker 1: One group needs to lose weight, another group needs to

649
00:42:43,719 --> 00:42:47,560
Speaker 1: gain weight. And then there are people who have food sensitivity,

650
00:42:47,719 --> 00:42:49,800
Speaker 1: so they might do elimination diets or just try to

651
00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:51,960
Speaker 1: figure out what am I sensitive to, what do I

652
00:42:52,080 --> 00:42:56,279
Speaker 1: thrive on, what don't I thrive on? And then the

653
00:42:56,320 --> 00:43:00,719
Speaker 1: final category that I usually talk about is it's kind

654
00:43:00,760 --> 00:43:06,640
Speaker 1: of a dietary intervention. They can actually become a treatment

655
00:43:06,760 --> 00:43:12,600
Speaker 1: unto itself. It's usually in the form of fasting or

656
00:43:12,920 --> 00:43:17,520
Speaker 1: a fasting mimicking diet, and there are many types of

657
00:43:17,680 --> 00:43:22,399
Speaker 1: fasting mimicking diets. Probably the most commonly known one is

658
00:43:22,800 --> 00:43:27,840
Speaker 1: a keutogenic diet, but there are others. There are plant

659
00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:33,920
Speaker 1: sourced low calorie fasting mimicking diets the researcher vaultered Longo

660
00:43:34,080 --> 00:43:37,520
Speaker 1: is kind of known for. But ultimately they are all

661
00:43:37,520 --> 00:43:42,719
Speaker 1: centered on this process of going without or tricking your

662
00:43:42,760 --> 00:43:45,440
Speaker 1: body that maybe it is going without even when it's not,

663
00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:49,440
Speaker 1: Which is kind of the sneaky thing about the ketogenic

664
00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:51,600
Speaker 1: diet is it tricks your body into thinking that it's

665
00:43:51,640 --> 00:43:56,480
Speaker 1: fasting when it's really not fasting. But the reason that

666
00:43:57,480 --> 00:44:02,120
Speaker 1: is important to just know is that you know, people

667
00:44:02,480 --> 00:44:08,600
Speaker 1: should not fast forever for good health, because that's called

668
00:44:08,600 --> 00:44:13,239
Speaker 1: starvation and you'll die within a week or so, not

669
00:44:13,360 --> 00:44:17,600
Speaker 1: good for your health. And so this isn't technically a

670
00:44:17,719 --> 00:44:22,680
Speaker 1: lifelong healthy diet that everybody should be on, and yet

671
00:44:22,760 --> 00:44:28,759
Speaker 1: it can have powerful healing properties when done for the

672
00:44:28,840 --> 00:44:32,640
Speaker 1: right amount of time in the right circumstances. I mean,

673
00:44:32,680 --> 00:44:35,120
Speaker 1: some people might be skeptical of this, So in case

674
00:44:35,160 --> 00:44:39,960
Speaker 1: anyone is, I just want to point out every culture

675
00:44:40,120 --> 00:44:45,920
Speaker 1: on Earth has used fasting as either a healing practice

676
00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:51,960
Speaker 1: or a religious practice for millennia. I don't think that's

677
00:44:52,000 --> 00:44:58,560
Speaker 1: a coincidence. I think that humans in every culture on

678
00:44:58,640 --> 00:45:05,840
Speaker 1: earth have noticed, gosh, well we fast. Miracles can sometimes happen,

679
00:45:06,920 --> 00:45:11,279
Speaker 1: and different cultures or religions have attributed the mechanism of

680
00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:16,879
Speaker 1: action to God, you know, showing mercy and healing or

681
00:45:17,040 --> 00:45:20,480
Speaker 1: whatever a variety of other you know, we're exercising the

682
00:45:20,520 --> 00:45:24,719
Speaker 1: demons that were clearly present, and so all sorts of

683
00:45:26,360 --> 00:45:31,080
Speaker 1: explanations have been evoked over millennia. And what I'm here

684
00:45:31,120 --> 00:45:35,840
Speaker 1: to say as a as a physician and scientist is

685
00:45:35,880 --> 00:45:39,200
Speaker 1: that the science is now catching up to say, whoa,

686
00:45:39,239 --> 00:45:44,960
Speaker 1: this actually is really doing a lot of amazing things

687
00:45:45,640 --> 00:45:51,040
Speaker 1: in the body and brain, and it is promoting healing. Now,

688
00:45:51,080 --> 00:45:53,719
Speaker 1: if anybody's super religious and they're a little annoyed with

689
00:45:53,760 --> 00:45:57,720
Speaker 1: me for saying it like that, God was probably involved

690
00:45:57,760 --> 00:46:02,920
Speaker 1: in biology and physio two. So if you want to

691
00:46:03,000 --> 00:46:06,800
Speaker 1: stick with this is God's thing. This is what God

692
00:46:06,840 --> 00:46:10,640
Speaker 1: wants us to do, and he shows mercy when we

693
00:46:10,719 --> 00:46:14,120
Speaker 1: do it well. He would still probably work through scientific

694
00:46:14,200 --> 00:46:17,439
Speaker 1: methods to change biology and make it work that way.

695
00:46:17,520 --> 00:46:20,520
Speaker 1: I don't know, but that's the thing where we can

696
00:46:20,600 --> 00:46:24,839
Speaker 1: start to get really sophisticated with using these interventions with

697
00:46:24,920 --> 00:46:29,560
Speaker 1: the right people in the right circumstances to promote healing

698
00:46:29,680 --> 00:46:30,320
Speaker 1: and recovery.

699
00:46:30,640 --> 00:46:35,120
Speaker 2: Earlier, you mentioned clients of viewers or people who are

700
00:46:35,800 --> 00:46:39,160
Speaker 2: struggling with schizophrenia or bipolar and you're saying that they

701
00:46:39,200 --> 00:46:45,440
Speaker 2: wouldn't appreciate these more surface level solutions. We'll start with bipolar,

702
00:46:45,480 --> 00:46:47,480
Speaker 2: which we hear about a lot more often. I feel,

703
00:46:47,880 --> 00:46:49,879
Speaker 2: what is it, how many people are struggling with it,

704
00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:53,120
Speaker 2: and what are some of the recommended steps there.

705
00:46:53,520 --> 00:46:59,760
Speaker 1: So bipolar disorder is one of those disorders that is skyrocketing.

706
00:46:59,800 --> 00:47:01,640
Speaker 2: And why is that?

707
00:47:02,200 --> 00:47:05,320
Speaker 1: I think that with all of them, with all of

708
00:47:05,400 --> 00:47:08,959
Speaker 1: the different diagnostic labels, there's so much disagreement about why

709
00:47:09,120 --> 00:47:13,480
Speaker 1: is that. It's such a critical question and an important question,

710
00:47:14,120 --> 00:47:17,360
Speaker 1: and I just want to say for the record, I

711
00:47:17,560 --> 00:47:22,080
Speaker 1: fully understand that there are different explains and the explanations

712
00:47:22,120 --> 00:47:26,319
Speaker 1: fall into kind of three categories. I would say Category one.

713
00:47:26,920 --> 00:47:31,839
Speaker 1: We're just better at recognizing it and diagnosing it. And

714
00:47:31,880 --> 00:47:35,080
Speaker 1: that's a good thing. It's a really good thing. Everybody's

715
00:47:35,120 --> 00:47:38,880
Speaker 1: talking about mental health today. We've got on purpose podcasts

716
00:47:38,920 --> 00:47:43,640
Speaker 1: talking about mental health, and so of course everybody is

717
00:47:43,760 --> 00:47:47,600
Speaker 1: just getting diagnosed and getting the treatment they need. But

718
00:47:47,680 --> 00:47:50,840
Speaker 1: the rates can't possibly really be increasing, especially with something

719
00:47:50,920 --> 00:47:54,680
Speaker 1: like bipolar, because many in the field believe it's genetic

720
00:47:55,600 --> 00:47:59,319
Speaker 1: and that wouldn't change in prevalence over such a short

721
00:47:59,320 --> 00:48:04,160
Speaker 1: period of time. The second category is disbelief. This can't

722
00:48:04,160 --> 00:48:09,920
Speaker 1: possibly be true. Americans are just whiny, lazy people. Everybody

723
00:48:09,960 --> 00:48:12,080
Speaker 1: loves to have a label. They all want to be special.

724
00:48:12,080 --> 00:48:14,680
Speaker 1: Everybody wants to be special these days, and they all

725
00:48:14,719 --> 00:48:18,000
Speaker 1: want to label or more, and so everybody wants to

726
00:48:18,000 --> 00:48:21,520
Speaker 1: have add everybody's one to has this that the other.

727
00:48:22,280 --> 00:48:26,520
Speaker 1: And there's no way this many people can really have

728
00:48:26,760 --> 00:48:30,759
Speaker 1: this many mental health conditions and so it's all fake

729
00:48:31,239 --> 00:48:34,759
Speaker 1: and or kind of related to that. People are just

730
00:48:34,840 --> 00:48:39,359
Speaker 1: seeking pills because they like the pills. So with ADHD, oh,

731
00:48:39,440 --> 00:48:43,040
Speaker 1: everybody just wants to be on stimulants. They're all gaming

732
00:48:43,080 --> 00:48:46,719
Speaker 1: the system. They're all going into these psychiatrists complaining about

733
00:48:46,719 --> 00:48:49,840
Speaker 1: how they have symptoms of ADHD when they really don't.

734
00:48:49,960 --> 00:48:53,360
Speaker 1: And really what they just want is they want their drugs.

735
00:48:53,440 --> 00:48:56,960
Speaker 1: They want adderall and Riddle and they're hooked on them

736
00:48:57,560 --> 00:49:02,080
Speaker 1: and that's what that's about. And then the third category

737
00:49:02,520 --> 00:49:08,239
Speaker 1: is no, folks, they're really actually going up in prevalence.

738
00:49:09,160 --> 00:49:11,799
Speaker 1: And I'm in that category, not to say that the

739
00:49:11,800 --> 00:49:14,920
Speaker 1: other category, not to say that the other two can't

740
00:49:14,960 --> 00:49:18,640
Speaker 1: sometimes occur. Yes, I do know some people who like

741
00:49:18,880 --> 00:49:22,360
Speaker 1: labels and probably like them too much and want attention

742
00:49:22,480 --> 00:49:25,759
Speaker 1: from them. And yes, I do think that we are

743
00:49:25,800 --> 00:49:29,120
Speaker 1: talking about mental health more and we are diagnosing people

744
00:49:29,160 --> 00:49:32,040
Speaker 1: who maybe would have been missed thirty years ago. I

745
00:49:32,080 --> 00:49:35,200
Speaker 1: do think that's real. So I'm not saying that those

746
00:49:35,239 --> 00:49:38,480
Speaker 1: aren't true, but I think the bulk of the statistics,

747
00:49:38,520 --> 00:49:42,680
Speaker 1: because the stats are staggering with bipolar disorder in the

748
00:49:42,760 --> 00:49:46,600
Speaker 1: United States alone, the rates have doubled in adults, and

749
00:49:46,640 --> 00:49:54,000
Speaker 1: they're up exponentially in children and adolescents, and like with children,

750
00:49:54,040 --> 00:49:57,400
Speaker 1: in adolescents, just to I mean, one study found a

751
00:49:57,520 --> 00:50:01,680
Speaker 1: four thousand percent increase in the diagnos That was largely

752
00:50:01,719 --> 00:50:06,560
Speaker 1: because in the nineteen sixties and seventies, nobody diagnosed children

753
00:50:06,880 --> 00:50:11,400
Speaker 1: with bipolar disorder, and now we're kind of you know,

754
00:50:11,440 --> 00:50:16,000
Speaker 1: if they're a little fidgety and moody and throw tantrums,

755
00:50:17,280 --> 00:50:20,320
Speaker 1: we might label that bipolar, even though it's not really

756
00:50:20,640 --> 00:50:24,520
Speaker 1: the definition of bipolar at all. Some people will diagnose

757
00:50:24,560 --> 00:50:28,160
Speaker 1: that as bipolar and start treating it. The usual treatments

758
00:50:28,160 --> 00:50:32,720
Speaker 1: for bipolar disorder are, you know, mood stabilizers and pretty

759
00:50:32,800 --> 00:50:36,200
Speaker 1: much mood stabilizers and lots of other psychiatric meds, and

760
00:50:36,239 --> 00:50:40,000
Speaker 1: the unfortunate reality is far too many people don't respond

761
00:50:40,000 --> 00:50:42,960
Speaker 1: to those. There are some who respond beautifully to them,

762
00:50:43,000 --> 00:50:45,560
Speaker 1: and I'm all for that, far too many don't.

763
00:50:45,840 --> 00:50:48,600
Speaker 2: Why are they still being given out if they don't work.

764
00:50:48,840 --> 00:50:53,080
Speaker 1: I think it's because of that half truth that they

765
00:50:53,120 --> 00:50:56,239
Speaker 1: do sometimes work for some people. And so you'll have

766
00:50:56,320 --> 00:51:01,200
Speaker 1: people marching in the streets kind of figuratively at least

767
00:51:01,600 --> 00:51:05,359
Speaker 1: saying this saved my life. Don't take this away, but

768
00:51:05,440 --> 00:51:10,280
Speaker 1: for anybody who knows anyone with bipolar disorder, the overwhelming

769
00:51:10,360 --> 00:51:17,200
Speaker 1: majority of people do not achieve remission and recovery from

770
00:51:17,239 --> 00:51:20,160
Speaker 1: the treatment, and we as a field tell them, you

771
00:51:20,320 --> 00:51:24,160
Speaker 1: just have a chronic disorder. You'll have this for life.

772
00:51:25,080 --> 00:51:29,600
Speaker 1: We're really sorry. We don't have cures in psychiatry. There's

773
00:51:29,600 --> 00:51:33,520
Speaker 1: no such thing as a cure, and you're just gonna

774
00:51:33,560 --> 00:51:35,960
Speaker 1: have to do your best and manage and we'll do

775
00:51:36,080 --> 00:51:39,200
Speaker 1: our we'll do our best to help you. But yeah,

776
00:51:39,239 --> 00:51:41,680
Speaker 1: you'll probably be in and out of hospitals sometimes through

777
00:51:41,760 --> 00:51:45,040
Speaker 1: no fault of your own. You'll be taking your pills religiously,

778
00:51:46,320 --> 00:51:50,280
Speaker 1: and then the season will change and you'll have an episode,

779
00:51:50,440 --> 00:51:52,600
Speaker 1: and we just don't know what to do about that.

780
00:51:53,400 --> 00:51:56,000
Speaker 1: I think what the real question you were probably asking

781
00:51:56,040 --> 00:51:59,960
Speaker 1: me was how could diet play a role for them?

782
00:52:00,080 --> 00:52:02,719
Speaker 1: You know, when people hear me talk about diet can

783
00:52:02,719 --> 00:52:06,920
Speaker 1: play a role for severe mental illness, most are still skeptical.

784
00:52:07,480 --> 00:52:12,359
Speaker 1: But we now have absolutely hundreds, but probably I've heard

785
00:52:12,360 --> 00:52:17,280
Speaker 1: from thousands of people who've been diagnosed with bipolar disorder

786
00:52:18,760 --> 00:52:24,640
Speaker 1: who have experienced significant improvement and or remission of their

787
00:52:24,640 --> 00:52:32,120
Speaker 1: symptoms using ketogenic diets or fasting mimicking diets. And I

788
00:52:32,160 --> 00:52:35,239
Speaker 1: want to just say upfront, because some people, ketogenic can

789
00:52:35,280 --> 00:52:38,640
Speaker 1: even be kind of a triggering word for some people,

790
00:52:38,680 --> 00:52:40,719
Speaker 1: and I just want to say up front, you can

791
00:52:40,760 --> 00:52:44,040
Speaker 1: do a vegan ketogenic diet. You can do a vegetarian

792
00:52:44,120 --> 00:52:46,759
Speaker 1: ketogenic dit. You can do an omniv or ketogenic diet.

793
00:52:46,840 --> 00:52:49,399
Speaker 1: You can do a carnivor kidogenic diet. So there's a

794
00:52:49,440 --> 00:52:53,680
Speaker 1: broad range of foods that people can eat and be

795
00:52:53,760 --> 00:52:56,800
Speaker 1: on a ketogenic diet. So it's not about plant sourced

796
00:52:56,880 --> 00:52:59,920
Speaker 1: versus animal sourced foods. It's not about eating bacon all

797
00:53:00,120 --> 00:53:03,560
Speaker 1: the time. Some people make it that and that it

798
00:53:03,600 --> 00:53:06,719
Speaker 1: can be ketogenic for them, but it doesn't have to

799
00:53:06,719 --> 00:53:08,960
Speaker 1: be all bacon if you don't want it to be

800
00:53:09,000 --> 00:53:11,759
Speaker 1: all bacon, and all bacon probably is not a healthy buy.

801
00:53:12,800 --> 00:53:15,240
Speaker 1: For the record, you probably need a little more nutrition

802
00:53:15,400 --> 00:53:17,840
Speaker 1: than that. Usually. The first thing that I say for

803
00:53:17,920 --> 00:53:19,840
Speaker 1: the skeptics who are like that, there's no way that

804
00:53:19,880 --> 00:53:22,840
Speaker 1: can be true. This sounds unbelievable or crazier. It sounds

805
00:53:22,880 --> 00:53:25,360
Speaker 1: like he's a quacker. He's selling something. A lot of

806
00:53:25,400 --> 00:53:28,799
Speaker 1: people think that you're selling something like Well, actually, I

807
00:53:28,840 --> 00:53:32,760
Speaker 1: don't get paid any royalties for people who do ketogenic diets.

808
00:53:32,800 --> 00:53:36,880
Speaker 1: I wish I did. I wish there was a ketogenic

809
00:53:36,920 --> 00:53:39,440
Speaker 1: society that would give me a ten cent royalty or

810
00:53:39,440 --> 00:53:42,279
Speaker 1: something for everybody who tries it, But no such luck.

811
00:53:42,760 --> 00:53:44,960
Speaker 1: I think. One of the really important things to just

812
00:53:45,120 --> 00:53:49,160
Speaker 1: point out for any skeptics right off the bat is

813
00:53:49,200 --> 00:53:51,680
Speaker 1: that although a lot of people know the keto diet

814
00:53:51,800 --> 00:53:56,040
Speaker 1: is this fad weight loss diet, in fact it was

815
00:53:56,080 --> 00:53:59,000
Speaker 1: developed a hundred years ago by a physician for one

816
00:53:59,040 --> 00:54:02,120
Speaker 1: and only one purpose, and that is to stop seizures.

817
00:54:03,160 --> 00:54:07,040
Speaker 1: That the ketogenic diet is an epilepsy treatment. Wow, And

818
00:54:07,440 --> 00:54:10,640
Speaker 1: it is actually now an evidence based epilepsy treatment. We

819
00:54:10,760 --> 00:54:15,520
Speaker 1: have many controlled trials. We have two kind of gold

820
00:54:15,600 --> 00:54:19,680
Speaker 1: standard medical reviews called the Cochrane reviews that support that

821
00:54:19,719 --> 00:54:24,520
Speaker 1: the ketogenic diet is a very effective treatment for epilepsy,

822
00:54:24,719 --> 00:54:29,239
Speaker 1: especially childhood epilepsy, even when medications fail to stop the seizures.

823
00:54:29,800 --> 00:54:32,520
Speaker 1: And the reason that's so important to point out is

824
00:54:32,520 --> 00:54:35,560
Speaker 1: that it turns out that we use epilepsy treatments for

825
00:54:35,760 --> 00:54:39,520
Speaker 1: a wide range of mental health conditions, but in particular

826
00:54:39,719 --> 00:54:48,400
Speaker 1: bipolar disorder. So a lot of anti convulsants like depicot tegritol, lamictyl, gabba, penton,

827
00:54:48,719 --> 00:54:54,960
Speaker 1: others are used for they were actually developed initially for epilepsy.

828
00:54:55,800 --> 00:54:59,520
Speaker 1: They're really epilepsy pills, but most of your listeners, if

829
00:54:59,560 --> 00:55:02,640
Speaker 1: they wreck ignize any of those names, they recognize them

830
00:55:02,680 --> 00:55:07,320
Speaker 1: as psychiatric pills or psychiatric medications because they're most commonly

831
00:55:07,360 --> 00:55:11,920
Speaker 1: prescribed for that. And so in a way, given that

832
00:55:11,960 --> 00:55:16,440
Speaker 1: we use epilepsy treatments all the time for mental health conditions,

833
00:55:17,080 --> 00:55:20,280
Speaker 1: it shouldn't be shocking that a diet that can stop

834
00:55:20,320 --> 00:55:23,120
Speaker 1: seizures might also play a role for some people.

835
00:55:23,440 --> 00:55:27,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, wow, I had no idea. That's fascinating, Like, how

836
00:55:27,160 --> 00:55:29,719
Speaker 2: did we even discover that something that was used one

837
00:55:29,760 --> 00:55:32,800
Speaker 2: hundred years ago for that was possible now to use again.

838
00:55:33,320 --> 00:55:37,280
Speaker 1: The first published study for mental health was in nineteen

839
00:55:37,320 --> 00:55:41,040
Speaker 1: sixty five. Some researchers did a study of women with

840
00:55:41,080 --> 00:55:44,359
Speaker 1: schizophrenia put the monochutogenic diet for just two weeks, and

841
00:55:44,400 --> 00:55:49,080
Speaker 1: they noticed at least some improvement in their symptoms. Largely,

842
00:55:49,480 --> 00:55:53,919
Speaker 1: people haven't even really seriously considered it or thought about it,

843
00:55:54,760 --> 00:55:57,400
Speaker 1: and the usually the assumption is that people with mental

844
00:55:57,440 --> 00:56:01,440
Speaker 1: illness can't do a diet, right, that's I mean, yeah,

845
00:56:01,600 --> 00:56:05,240
Speaker 1: people with mental illness are too impaired, they're really sick.

846
00:56:05,760 --> 00:56:09,080
Speaker 1: There's no way they could do a diet. But what

847
00:56:09,120 --> 00:56:12,320
Speaker 1: I'm here to say is it, Please don't short change

848
00:56:12,360 --> 00:56:17,520
Speaker 1: them and underestimate their determination to get better, Because I'm

849
00:56:17,600 --> 00:56:22,600
Speaker 1: getting people with schizophrenia and bipolar disorder and crippling depression

850
00:56:24,040 --> 00:56:26,480
Speaker 1: to be able to change their diet and stick with it.

851
00:56:27,560 --> 00:56:31,240
Speaker 1: When people are fighting for their life. It's really amazing

852
00:56:31,280 --> 00:56:34,080
Speaker 1: what they're capable of doing, even when they're so impaired.

853
00:56:35,000 --> 00:56:37,200
Speaker 1: Even when they're so impaired, I'm not here to say

854
00:56:37,200 --> 00:56:40,720
Speaker 1: they're not impaired. I'm also not here to say it's easy.

855
00:56:40,760 --> 00:56:42,719
Speaker 1: I'm not here to say like, oh, just tell them

856
00:56:43,040 --> 00:56:45,880
Speaker 1: keutogenetic diet and then two days later they're going to

857
00:56:45,880 --> 00:56:49,040
Speaker 1: be cured. That's not the way this works. People need support,

858
00:56:49,160 --> 00:56:52,439
Speaker 1: they need education, they need a lot of help. They

859
00:56:52,560 --> 00:56:55,680
Speaker 1: absolutely need a lot of help. But it is possible,

860
00:56:55,760 --> 00:56:59,480
Speaker 1: it is doable, and when we support these people, they

861
00:56:59,600 --> 00:57:04,239
Speaker 1: can do it. And you know, the great news is that,

862
00:57:04,400 --> 00:57:07,719
Speaker 1: although to some people this may sound anecdotal or Chris

863
00:57:07,760 --> 00:57:13,640
Speaker 1: Palmer's making stuff upperate, we now have twenty controlled trials

864
00:57:13,800 --> 00:57:17,240
Speaker 1: underway around the world of the ketogenic diet for a

865
00:57:17,280 --> 00:57:20,440
Speaker 1: wide range of mental health conditions. Eight of them are

866
00:57:21,000 --> 00:57:27,400
Speaker 1: randomized controlled trials, and we have several pilot trials, many

867
00:57:27,440 --> 00:57:31,920
Speaker 1: case reports already published. I actually just published a review

868
00:57:32,160 --> 00:57:35,560
Speaker 1: article on this topic of how often has the ketogenic

869
00:57:35,760 --> 00:57:38,280
Speaker 1: diet been used for mental health conditions? We have over

870
00:57:38,480 --> 00:57:43,560
Speaker 1: fifty publications already published in the literature and over nineteen

871
00:57:43,720 --> 00:57:47,960
Speaker 1: hundred people one nine hundred people who participated in these trials,

872
00:57:48,360 --> 00:57:53,640
Speaker 1: and the overwhelming majority of them found some benefit. Now,

873
00:57:53,680 --> 00:57:56,000
Speaker 1: I'm not trying to say all of them were cured

874
00:57:56,280 --> 00:57:58,520
Speaker 1: of their mental health condition, because mental health is a

875
00:57:58,520 --> 00:58:01,600
Speaker 1: lot more complicated than just and I'm not here to

876
00:58:01,640 --> 00:58:05,320
Speaker 1: say any one treatment is going to magically fix everyone.

877
00:58:05,760 --> 00:58:08,360
Speaker 1: Because that's not the way it works. And I hear

878
00:58:08,520 --> 00:58:12,480
Speaker 1: from people around the world who have suffered from chronic,

879
00:58:12,720 --> 00:58:16,480
Speaker 1: severe crippling mental illnesses, and a lot of them are

880
00:58:16,560 --> 00:58:21,320
Speaker 1: getting full remission, sometimes off of their psychiatric medication. Sometimes

881
00:58:21,320 --> 00:58:25,160
Speaker 1: they're able to completely taper off. And even that, like

882
00:58:25,200 --> 00:58:29,240
Speaker 1: when they get remission, it's not like this simple process

883
00:58:29,920 --> 00:58:34,080
Speaker 1: shocking surprisingly because you would think that, like, oh, if

884
00:58:34,200 --> 00:58:36,560
Speaker 1: I put them into remission, they should be so happy,

885
00:58:36,640 --> 00:58:39,040
Speaker 1: jumping up and down for joy, smiling all the time.

886
00:58:39,640 --> 00:58:44,080
Speaker 1: And there's some of that. There's also this phase that

887
00:58:44,120 --> 00:58:47,960
Speaker 1: almost everybody goes through a profound grief for the life

888
00:58:48,000 --> 00:58:54,080
Speaker 1: that they've lost. They recognize, I just lost thirty years

889
00:58:54,080 --> 00:58:58,200
Speaker 1: of my life to that illness. Wow, why didn't somebody

890
00:58:58,240 --> 00:59:01,800
Speaker 1: give this to me thirty years ago? Because I was

891
00:59:01,960 --> 00:59:07,200
Speaker 1: in college. I had a girlfriend, we were going to

892
00:59:07,240 --> 00:59:12,240
Speaker 1: get married, and when I became schistophrenic, I lost everything.

893
00:59:13,440 --> 00:59:17,200
Speaker 1: I had to drop out of college. I've never had

894
00:59:17,200 --> 00:59:21,720
Speaker 1: a girlfriend since. I lost all my friends. I couldn't

895
00:59:21,720 --> 00:59:27,120
Speaker 1: live independently anymore. I gained all this weight. I've been

896
00:59:27,160 --> 00:59:33,880
Speaker 1: a pariah in society for thirty years, and now I'm better.

897
00:59:34,560 --> 00:59:36,600
Speaker 1: What am I supposed to do, Chris.

898
00:59:36,640 --> 00:59:38,560
Speaker 2: When I'm listening to you, I'm thinking, we've talked about

899
00:59:38,560 --> 00:59:40,360
Speaker 2: the macro, We've talked about the micro. But when I'm

900
00:59:40,360 --> 00:59:43,400
Speaker 2: hearing you talk about it that way, I'm like, what

901
00:59:43,560 --> 00:59:46,920
Speaker 2: made you dedicate your life to this work? Because this

902
00:59:47,000 --> 00:59:48,920
Speaker 2: isn't just something that you do, it's who you are.

903
00:59:49,040 --> 00:59:51,040
Speaker 2: You can tell by the passion you have for it,

904
00:59:51,120 --> 00:59:54,880
Speaker 2: the energy you have for the people that you support

905
00:59:54,960 --> 00:59:56,680
Speaker 2: and serve and work with every day. Like you said,

906
00:59:56,680 --> 00:59:59,120
Speaker 2: you don't have any skin in the game when you

907
00:59:59,160 --> 01:00:00,960
Speaker 2: look at it from a bit in his point of view,

908
01:00:01,880 --> 01:00:03,880
Speaker 2: So where's that coming from.

909
01:00:04,400 --> 01:00:07,040
Speaker 1: I have had my own struggles with mental illness from

910
01:00:07,080 --> 01:00:12,960
Speaker 1: a very young age in terms of OCD, later crippling depression, suicidality,

911
01:00:13,400 --> 01:00:15,919
Speaker 1: all sorts of things, and I'm happy to go into

912
01:00:15,960 --> 01:00:18,480
Speaker 1: that at some point if you want to. But the

913
01:00:18,480 --> 01:00:22,320
Speaker 1: real reason I ended up becoming a psychiatrist is because

914
01:00:23,320 --> 01:00:27,880
Speaker 1: of my mother, who you know. I'm from a family

915
01:00:27,960 --> 01:00:31,760
Speaker 1: of eight kids, and when my mom was in her

916
01:00:31,760 --> 01:00:37,280
Speaker 1: early forties, she had been relatively quote unquote normal up

917
01:00:37,360 --> 01:00:44,160
Speaker 1: until then, raising a family, helping my father run his business,

918
01:00:44,960 --> 01:00:49,960
Speaker 1: living a normal middle class life in the Midwest. A

919
01:00:50,120 --> 01:00:54,280
Speaker 1: series of events happened in her family that were ridiculously

920
01:00:54,360 --> 01:00:59,200
Speaker 1: stressful and put a tremendous burden on her. And she

921
01:01:00,120 --> 01:01:02,920
Speaker 1: had what started is what she called a nervous breakdown

922
01:01:03,920 --> 01:01:09,040
Speaker 1: that quickly turned into depression and suicidality, and then pretty

923
01:01:09,120 --> 01:01:17,280
Speaker 1: quickly turned into psychotic symptoms. And she was hospitalized, she

924
01:01:17,480 --> 01:01:21,760
Speaker 1: was medicated, she was getting psychotherapy, she was getting all

925
01:01:21,800 --> 01:01:24,800
Speaker 1: of the treatment that the mental health field had to offer.

926
01:01:25,760 --> 01:01:28,680
Speaker 1: None of it worked, and she ended up living the

927
01:01:28,720 --> 01:01:32,840
Speaker 1: rest of her life with a chronic psychotic disorder. And

928
01:01:32,920 --> 01:01:37,120
Speaker 1: it ruined her life. It's not an understatement. She lost

929
01:01:37,160 --> 01:01:40,680
Speaker 1: custody of all of her eight kids. I went to

930
01:01:40,720 --> 01:01:43,600
Speaker 1: live with her for a while. We end up homeless

931
01:01:43,600 --> 01:01:45,640
Speaker 1: together for a while. I mean, it was a nightmare.

932
01:01:45,880 --> 01:01:49,200
Speaker 1: But she loses custody of her kids, she loses her business,

933
01:01:49,240 --> 01:01:52,400
Speaker 1: she loses all of her money, she loses friends, family,

934
01:01:53,040 --> 01:01:56,400
Speaker 1: all sorts of things due to this psychotic disorder. And

935
01:01:56,520 --> 01:02:02,560
Speaker 1: I saw all of that happen, and I was furious

936
01:02:02,640 --> 01:02:07,440
Speaker 1: with the mental health field, furious, why are they so incompetent,

937
01:02:08,440 --> 01:02:10,800
Speaker 1: Why aren't they helping her? Like I knew there was

938
01:02:10,840 --> 01:02:14,959
Speaker 1: something wrong with her. It was clear she was delusional.

939
01:02:15,200 --> 01:02:18,320
Speaker 1: She thought she was Mary Magdalene reincarnated. She thought the

940
01:02:18,360 --> 01:02:21,520
Speaker 1: world was ending. She would get paranoid about people, I mean,

941
01:02:21,640 --> 01:02:25,000
Speaker 1: all sorts of symptoms, So I knew there was something

942
01:02:25,000 --> 01:02:28,240
Speaker 1: wrong with her, But I was just in disbelief that

943
01:02:28,280 --> 01:02:32,320
Speaker 1: the mental health field could be so incompetent. Why aren't

944
01:02:32,320 --> 01:02:36,560
Speaker 1: they helping her, Why aren't they making her better? They

945
01:02:36,560 --> 01:02:40,520
Speaker 1: have a hospital, what are they doing? And when I

946
01:02:40,520 --> 01:02:42,560
Speaker 1: saw what they were doing, I was horrified because they

947
01:02:42,560 --> 01:02:45,600
Speaker 1: were putting her on medicines that made her seem like

948
01:02:45,640 --> 01:02:48,960
Speaker 1: a zombie, but she was still crazy, and I was like,

949
01:02:49,240 --> 01:02:51,760
Speaker 1: what are they doing? Are they poisoning her on purpose? Like?

950
01:02:51,760 --> 01:02:56,760
Speaker 1: What is that? Like? What are they doing? And ultimately

951
01:02:58,040 --> 01:03:01,680
Speaker 1: she's the reason I became a psychiatrist because I saw

952
01:03:01,760 --> 01:03:06,160
Speaker 1: how devastating mental illness can be. It's not that devastating

953
01:03:06,160 --> 01:03:10,160
Speaker 1: for everybody. Thankfully, some people have mild, moderate things, and

954
01:03:10,200 --> 01:03:15,520
Speaker 1: that's great. But I saw that it can literally ruin

955
01:03:16,040 --> 01:03:20,720
Speaker 1: a person's life, it can ruin an entire family, and

956
01:03:20,720 --> 01:03:27,880
Speaker 1: that she was innocent. She didn't do anything to deserve

957
01:03:27,960 --> 01:03:33,560
Speaker 1: any of that. She wasn't using drugs. There was no blame,

958
01:03:35,560 --> 01:03:39,959
Speaker 1: no way to blame her for any of it. And

959
01:03:40,920 --> 01:03:45,280
Speaker 1: I went into the field hoping that maybe somehow I

960
01:03:45,360 --> 01:03:48,720
Speaker 1: might be able to make a difference and do something different.

961
01:03:49,280 --> 01:03:51,480
Speaker 2: Thank you for sharing that. It's incredible that you were

962
01:03:51,520 --> 01:03:54,840
Speaker 2: able to, you know, turn a pain into a purpose

963
01:03:54,880 --> 01:03:57,720
Speaker 2: for you, even though I can't imagine how painful it

964
01:03:57,800 --> 01:04:01,320
Speaker 2: was over those years just watching that, feeling helpless, I'm

965
01:04:01,320 --> 01:04:04,479
Speaker 2: sure at times and hopeless. And do you believe that

966
01:04:05,000 --> 01:04:08,280
Speaker 2: if you knew what you know now then that there

967
01:04:08,320 --> 01:04:11,000
Speaker 2: were different ways of helping and supporting.

968
01:04:10,640 --> 01:04:14,920
Speaker 1: Her one hundred You know, when I went into psychiatry,

969
01:04:16,360 --> 01:04:20,800
Speaker 1: I became one of those evil psychiatrists who just told

970
01:04:20,800 --> 01:04:25,200
Speaker 1: out pills that didn't really work. And I felt so

971
01:04:25,360 --> 01:04:29,600
Speaker 1: helpless and so hopeless for our field because you had

972
01:04:29,640 --> 01:04:33,520
Speaker 1: to because those were the only tools that I had available,

973
01:04:33,720 --> 01:04:36,600
Speaker 1: and people would end up in life threatening situations. It

974
01:04:36,680 --> 01:04:39,680
Speaker 1: would be manic and psychotic and a danger to themselves

975
01:04:39,720 --> 01:04:43,560
Speaker 1: or others, and we had to do something. We had

976
01:04:43,560 --> 01:04:46,439
Speaker 1: to keep them alive or I felt compelled to try

977
01:04:46,440 --> 01:04:48,680
Speaker 1: to keep them alive, and that was the only tool

978
01:04:49,880 --> 01:04:55,960
Speaker 1: that I had learned about. I always was skeptical of

979
01:04:56,000 --> 01:04:59,680
Speaker 1: all of it. I always kept a healthy dose of

980
01:04:59,680 --> 01:05:02,439
Speaker 1: skeps criticism about everything I was doing in the mental

981
01:05:02,480 --> 01:05:05,080
Speaker 1: health field because I recognize this is the same thing

982
01:05:05,120 --> 01:05:07,240
Speaker 1: that they did for my mom and it didn't work,

983
01:05:07,320 --> 01:05:09,920
Speaker 1: So why should we think this is going to be

984
01:05:09,960 --> 01:05:12,840
Speaker 1: any better? But I felt helpless. I didn't know what

985
01:05:13,040 --> 01:05:20,160
Speaker 1: else to do. I am now filled with tremendous hope

986
01:05:20,440 --> 01:05:24,080
Speaker 1: that when we put it all together, when we put

987
01:05:24,120 --> 01:05:30,560
Speaker 1: all of this science together and we understand some actual

988
01:05:30,760 --> 01:05:33,760
Speaker 1: interventions that can really be done right now in twenty

989
01:05:33,800 --> 01:05:38,640
Speaker 1: twenty four, like a keutogenic diet, the science of how

990
01:05:38,720 --> 01:05:42,479
Speaker 1: that would help the brain of someone with schizophrenia gets

991
01:05:42,600 --> 01:05:46,000
Speaker 1: really complicated fast. I can understand that science.

992
01:05:46,320 --> 01:05:48,560
Speaker 2: Other people don't need to.

993
01:05:48,680 --> 01:05:50,760
Speaker 1: They just need to understand that you're going to do

994
01:05:50,840 --> 01:05:52,320
Speaker 1: this diet, and we're going to help you do it,

995
01:05:52,360 --> 01:05:55,040
Speaker 1: and we're going to coach you and provide support and

996
01:05:55,520 --> 01:05:58,440
Speaker 1: you know, and figure out what you can do and

997
01:05:58,480 --> 01:06:03,720
Speaker 1: what you don't want to do, and it's an achievable treatment.

998
01:06:04,760 --> 01:06:09,480
Speaker 1: It's a realistic, accessible treatment today in twenty twenty four,

999
01:06:10,840 --> 01:06:14,880
Speaker 1: and it can save lives. What I am most hopeful

1000
01:06:14,880 --> 01:06:21,400
Speaker 1: about is the way that this broader theory can help

1001
01:06:21,560 --> 01:06:27,440
Speaker 1: us develop even more tools and treatments and strategies and

1002
01:06:27,480 --> 01:06:32,040
Speaker 1: I'm really hopeful it will force us to rethink a

1003
01:06:32,080 --> 01:06:35,240
Speaker 1: lot of what we're doing in our field. It will

1004
01:06:35,360 --> 01:06:42,520
Speaker 1: force us to look for root causes to use treatments.

1005
01:06:42,840 --> 01:06:46,760
Speaker 1: Some of them need to be used sparingly, I would argue,

1006
01:06:47,240 --> 01:06:49,800
Speaker 1: maybe in life threatening situations, but then we need to

1007
01:06:49,800 --> 01:06:55,080
Speaker 1: move on to health promoting treatments. I'm in my fifties.

1008
01:06:55,800 --> 01:06:57,360
Speaker 1: I don't know how much more time I have, but

1009
01:06:57,440 --> 01:06:59,960
Speaker 1: I think I have enough time that in my lifetime,

1010
01:07:00,720 --> 01:07:04,200
Speaker 1: I believe it is possible that we will see a

1011
01:07:04,440 --> 01:07:08,960
Speaker 1: transformation of the mental health field and we will look

1012
01:07:09,120 --> 01:07:13,400
Speaker 1: back on the way we treated mental illness in twenty

1013
01:07:13,480 --> 01:07:18,680
Speaker 1: twenty four as almost barbaric, and how could they have

1014
01:07:18,760 --> 01:07:23,960
Speaker 1: done that? Like why didn't they use these other strategies

1015
01:07:24,000 --> 01:07:27,520
Speaker 1: that are so much more effective. I am really hopeful

1016
01:07:27,720 --> 01:07:30,800
Speaker 1: that we may see that day in the next ten

1017
01:07:30,840 --> 01:07:31,600
Speaker 1: to twenty years.

1018
01:07:32,360 --> 01:07:35,560
Speaker 2: And if there are parents and future parents listening who

1019
01:07:36,640 --> 01:07:40,520
Speaker 2: have in their family had a history of mental health

1020
01:07:41,120 --> 01:07:43,120
Speaker 2: and they don't want to pass it on to their children,

1021
01:07:43,680 --> 01:07:45,920
Speaker 2: what are the things they should be looking at. Is

1022
01:07:45,960 --> 01:07:47,720
Speaker 2: it possible to not pass it on?

1023
01:07:48,320 --> 01:07:54,440
Speaker 1: If you do have genes that increase risk, you have

1024
01:07:54,560 --> 01:07:57,000
Speaker 1: passed them on It's not your fault as a parent.

1025
01:07:57,120 --> 01:07:59,520
Speaker 1: Your parents did it to you, and their parents did

1026
01:07:59,560 --> 01:08:04,320
Speaker 1: it to them, and so don't spend any time or

1027
01:08:04,360 --> 01:08:08,960
Speaker 1: thought beating yourself up over that. So genetics do get

1028
01:08:09,000 --> 01:08:13,680
Speaker 1: passed on, and we're not changing those anytime soon. Epigenetics

1029
01:08:13,760 --> 01:08:17,400
Speaker 1: also get passed on, unfortunately, and that gets more complicated.

1030
01:08:17,439 --> 01:08:20,360
Speaker 1: It means that if you've been traumatized as a parent,

1031
01:08:20,640 --> 01:08:26,200
Speaker 1: if you had a horrible childhood your parents physically beat you,

1032
01:08:27,439 --> 01:08:33,840
Speaker 1: surprisingly you have passed at least a glimpse of that

1033
01:08:34,080 --> 01:08:39,880
Speaker 1: experience on to your children. When people have trauma, especially

1034
01:08:39,920 --> 01:08:45,280
Speaker 1: prolonged trauma, it causes changes in what I think we

1035
01:08:45,360 --> 01:08:50,080
Speaker 1: can safely just call epigenetics, and that might mean modifications

1036
01:08:50,120 --> 01:08:55,160
Speaker 1: to your DNA. It might mean like micro RNA molecules

1037
01:08:55,160 --> 01:09:00,880
Speaker 1: and other kind of things that actually can get transferred

1038
01:09:01,439 --> 01:09:06,519
Speaker 1: in eggs and sperm cells to new children and can

1039
01:09:06,600 --> 01:09:12,439
Speaker 1: impact their future mental health and metabolic health. Some parts

1040
01:09:12,479 --> 01:09:18,559
Speaker 1: are unchangeable, but the good news, the great news is

1041
01:09:18,600 --> 01:09:25,400
Speaker 1: that genes and even epigenetics are not the primary determinants

1042
01:09:25,439 --> 01:09:30,679
Speaker 1: of these illnesses. I believe environment, the way we live

1043
01:09:30,800 --> 01:09:35,599
Speaker 1: our lives, is and the strongest testament to that is

1044
01:09:35,640 --> 01:09:40,520
Speaker 1: actually the exponential rise in rates. Our genes have not changed.

1045
01:09:41,520 --> 01:09:45,880
Speaker 1: Our epigenetics may have changed, but epigenetics can change one

1046
01:09:45,880 --> 01:09:50,120
Speaker 1: way or another. If you are a parent to a child,

1047
01:09:50,560 --> 01:09:53,479
Speaker 1: we're going to do all of the usual obvious things.

1048
01:09:53,680 --> 01:09:57,160
Speaker 1: You're going to love your child, You're going to provide safety,

1049
01:09:58,040 --> 01:10:00,920
Speaker 1: You're not going to coddle completely. You're gonna let them

1050
01:10:00,960 --> 01:10:04,120
Speaker 1: be independent, take some risks. You're gonna let them fail

1051
01:10:04,200 --> 01:10:06,559
Speaker 1: every now and then. You're gonna do all of those things.

1052
01:10:06,600 --> 01:10:09,120
Speaker 1: You're gonna really support and encourage them to have friends

1053
01:10:09,160 --> 01:10:12,439
Speaker 1: and community. You're gonna have them move, You're gonna have

1054
01:10:12,479 --> 01:10:16,679
Speaker 1: them get outside. All of that stuff. Probably the single

1055
01:10:17,320 --> 01:10:22,600
Speaker 1: biggest blind spot for most parents is what you're allowing

1056
01:10:22,640 --> 01:10:26,360
Speaker 1: your child to put into his or her mouth day

1057
01:10:26,680 --> 01:10:32,040
Speaker 1: after day after day. If they live in America, there

1058
01:10:32,120 --> 01:10:36,080
Speaker 1: is a very very good chance they are eating a

1059
01:10:36,120 --> 01:10:40,839
Speaker 1: lot of ultra processed foods. That is something that most

1060
01:10:40,920 --> 01:10:44,120
Speaker 1: people is not even on their radar, that that could

1061
01:10:44,120 --> 01:10:47,439
Speaker 1: play a role in brain health. And what I'm here

1062
01:10:47,479 --> 01:10:50,439
Speaker 1: to say very loudly and clearly is it can play

1063
01:10:50,439 --> 01:10:54,080
Speaker 1: a role in brain health. And one of the best

1064
01:10:54,120 --> 01:10:56,759
Speaker 1: things you could do on top of all those other basics.

1065
01:10:56,800 --> 01:10:59,479
Speaker 1: So if somebody is living in poverty, in an abusive

1066
01:10:59,520 --> 01:11:02,880
Speaker 1: household with substance use and all, yes, all of that

1067
01:11:03,000 --> 01:11:08,320
Speaker 1: is much worse than the diet that's not equivocal abuse,

1068
01:11:08,720 --> 01:11:12,280
Speaker 1: substance abuse, all of that is much worse than what

1069
01:11:12,280 --> 01:11:15,240
Speaker 1: you're putting in your mouth. But for all of the

1070
01:11:15,520 --> 01:11:17,920
Speaker 1: other parents who are like, no, we're already, we live

1071
01:11:17,960 --> 01:11:21,639
Speaker 1: in a loving, safe home. Our child has all of that,

1072
01:11:21,760 --> 01:11:25,280
Speaker 1: we're bending over backwards to provide all of that. The

1073
01:11:25,360 --> 01:11:29,360
Speaker 1: one thing that again is a blind spot is nutrition.

1074
01:11:30,439 --> 01:11:33,719
Speaker 1: And it's not about your child's not getting enough calories,

1075
01:11:33,760 --> 01:11:36,160
Speaker 1: because I know your child's probably getting more than enough calories.

1076
01:11:36,880 --> 01:11:38,519
Speaker 1: It's not that your child's not getting all of the

1077
01:11:38,640 --> 01:11:42,559
Speaker 1: vitamins and nutrients here she needs. It's that your child

1078
01:11:42,600 --> 01:11:44,760
Speaker 1: is also getting all of these chemicals that have been

1079
01:11:44,800 --> 01:11:50,400
Speaker 1: added to the food that are actually affecting brain function.

1080
01:11:51,880 --> 01:11:55,759
Speaker 1: And who knew, Well, increasingly now we do know, and

1081
01:11:55,800 --> 01:11:59,880
Speaker 1: so now we really need to do something about that.

1082
01:12:00,200 --> 01:12:03,000
Speaker 2: What are some of the chemicals that were convinced of

1083
01:12:03,040 --> 01:12:05,559
Speaker 2: having negative impacts on our brain?

1084
01:12:05,600 --> 01:12:09,760
Speaker 1: House convinced? I can't you know, I need to acknowledge

1085
01:12:09,800 --> 01:12:15,840
Speaker 1: the controversy in the field and there are powerful forces

1086
01:12:15,880 --> 01:12:21,200
Speaker 1: that will work to keep this controversial. And what are

1087
01:12:21,280 --> 01:12:24,360
Speaker 1: those powerful forces? You ask the food companies that make

1088
01:12:24,400 --> 01:12:29,320
Speaker 1: these products. If I am the maker of Dorito's, I

1089
01:12:29,360 --> 01:12:34,439
Speaker 1: don't want anybody saying bad things about Dorito's. There's nothing

1090
01:12:34,479 --> 01:12:38,120
Speaker 1: wrong with Dorito's. Everybody should be able to treat themselves

1091
01:12:38,160 --> 01:12:43,759
Speaker 1: every now and then. And the Dorito's makers will hire

1092
01:12:44,800 --> 01:12:50,800
Speaker 1: medical experts to cast doubt, to say there's no way

1093
01:12:50,880 --> 01:12:55,120
Speaker 1: that Chris Palmer's right, there's not adequate evidence for this,

1094
01:12:56,160 --> 01:12:59,800
Speaker 1: that can't be true. Don't listen to him. He's a

1095
01:12:59,800 --> 01:13:04,880
Speaker 1: conspiracy theorist. He's just trying to alarm you again. The

1096
01:13:04,960 --> 01:13:09,680
Speaker 1: great news is that increasingly we have Republicans, Democrats, many

1097
01:13:09,720 --> 01:13:16,200
Speaker 1: powerful people finally coming together in a unified way on

1098
01:13:16,240 --> 01:13:21,400
Speaker 1: this front. So I'm hopeful. The precise chemicals, it's really

1099
01:13:22,160 --> 01:13:26,479
Speaker 1: hard to narrow down. The biggest challenge is that we

1100
01:13:26,600 --> 01:13:33,120
Speaker 1: can't do randomized controlled trials in humans. If researchers believe

1101
01:13:33,400 --> 01:13:39,240
Speaker 1: that chemical X is harmful, potentially the Ethics Review Board

1102
01:13:39,280 --> 01:13:42,840
Speaker 1: would not allow them. Even if this is ubiquitous in

1103
01:13:42,880 --> 01:13:46,160
Speaker 1: our food supply, the Ethics Review Board might say, no,

1104
01:13:46,240 --> 01:13:47,920
Speaker 1: you can't, We're not going to allow you to do

1105
01:13:48,000 --> 01:13:51,960
Speaker 1: this study, but still product if your hypothesis is correct

1106
01:13:52,080 --> 01:13:56,400
Speaker 1: and this is a harmful substance, you're gonna harm half

1107
01:13:56,439 --> 01:13:59,160
Speaker 1: of the people in your study. We can't have you

1108
01:13:59,240 --> 01:13:59,559
Speaker 1: do that.

1109
01:14:00,080 --> 01:14:01,719
Speaker 2: So it's not allowed in the study, but it's allowed

1110
01:14:01,720 --> 01:14:02,160
Speaker 2: in the food.

1111
01:14:02,240 --> 01:14:04,320
Speaker 1: It would be allowed in the food because it hasn't

1112
01:14:04,360 --> 01:14:09,160
Speaker 1: been proven dangerous. But if you're exposing people to a

1113
01:14:09,280 --> 01:14:13,400
Speaker 1: danger and there's no benefit to them, the ethics board

1114
01:14:13,880 --> 01:14:17,599
Speaker 1: is looking out for the research participants. And if I'm

1115
01:14:17,640 --> 01:14:20,640
Speaker 1: a research participant, you know you want to test the

1116
01:14:20,720 --> 01:14:23,800
Speaker 1: hypothesis that cyanide is bad for humans, I'm going to

1117
01:14:23,800 --> 01:14:26,000
Speaker 1: give half the people cyanide and half of them not

1118
01:14:27,240 --> 01:14:30,840
Speaker 1: and just see what happens. The ethics boards will say, no,

1119
01:14:30,960 --> 01:14:33,960
Speaker 1: you can't do that study because your assumption is that

1120
01:14:34,000 --> 01:14:36,200
Speaker 1: this is a harmful thing, and so we can't have

1121
01:14:36,320 --> 01:14:40,960
Speaker 1: you poison half the participants. That's not going to benefit

1122
01:14:41,040 --> 01:14:44,320
Speaker 1: then in any way. So instead, what we do have

1123
01:14:44,520 --> 01:14:49,519
Speaker 1: our animal studies, and one of the clearest most recent

1124
01:14:49,680 --> 01:14:57,799
Speaker 1: examples of potential harm too with a mental health condition

1125
01:14:58,479 --> 01:15:02,120
Speaker 1: based on this kind of animal research is with a

1126
01:15:02,160 --> 01:15:07,519
Speaker 1: substance called aspartame or nutra sweet This is found in

1127
01:15:07,560 --> 01:15:14,200
Speaker 1: over five hundred diet foods and sodas. It is ubiquitous

1128
01:15:14,360 --> 01:15:18,360
Speaker 1: in our food supply. Aspartain is found in diet coke,

1129
01:15:18,840 --> 01:15:23,559
Speaker 1: most other diet sodas. It's ubiquitous in our food supply,

1130
01:15:24,160 --> 01:15:28,480
Speaker 1: and it's largely considered to be perfectly safe. So researchers

1131
01:15:28,520 --> 01:15:33,360
Speaker 1: actually took mice and they exposed them to normal doses

1132
01:15:33,439 --> 01:15:37,559
Speaker 1: of aspartain, so not extra high doses, not toxic doses,

1133
01:15:37,600 --> 01:15:42,000
Speaker 1: just normal doses that somebody who's drinking several diet cokes

1134
01:15:42,040 --> 01:15:46,040
Speaker 1: a day might be exposed to. The mice who got

1135
01:15:46,080 --> 01:15:51,800
Speaker 1: the aspartame were more likely to have anxiety like behaviors.

1136
01:15:52,400 --> 01:16:01,080
Speaker 1: Those anxiety like behaviors were reduced with valium, common treatment

1137
01:16:01,200 --> 01:16:04,559
Speaker 1: for anxiety. And the reason the researchers did that part

1138
01:16:04,560 --> 01:16:06,760
Speaker 1: of the study is they wanted to determine is this

1139
01:16:06,920 --> 01:16:12,240
Speaker 1: normal anxiety or is this some kind of weird aspartame anxiety?

1140
01:16:12,360 --> 01:16:15,840
Speaker 1: Is this like, are we inducing some brand new type

1141
01:16:15,840 --> 01:16:18,479
Speaker 1: of anxiety or is this bread and butter run of

1142
01:16:18,520 --> 01:16:22,679
Speaker 1: the mill anxiety disorder? And it was bread and butter,

1143
01:16:22,920 --> 01:16:25,759
Speaker 1: run of the mill anxiety disorder. The researchers then looked

1144
01:16:26,080 --> 01:16:28,760
Speaker 1: at the brain function of these mice, and sure enough

1145
01:16:28,800 --> 01:16:33,800
Speaker 1: they found amygdala hyperactivation. So the amygdala is kind of

1146
01:16:34,080 --> 01:16:37,880
Speaker 1: sometimes known as like the fear center or the panic center.

1147
01:16:38,280 --> 01:16:44,960
Speaker 1: So that lined up. Here's the devastating part though, is

1148
01:16:45,040 --> 01:16:50,519
Speaker 1: that the mice who were given aspartame went on to

1149
01:16:50,560 --> 01:16:54,559
Speaker 1: have babies, and those babies went on to have babies.

1150
01:16:55,600 --> 01:17:01,439
Speaker 1: None of the babies were exposed to aspartame, but for

1151
01:17:01,560 --> 01:17:07,160
Speaker 1: two generations the increased risk for anxiety like behaviors persisted,

1152
01:17:08,560 --> 01:17:15,479
Speaker 1: which means that aspartame is inducing epigenetic changes that can

1153
01:17:15,479 --> 01:17:20,479
Speaker 1: be transmitted to your children and your grandchildren. Now, if

1154
01:17:20,920 --> 01:17:25,720
Speaker 1: if this is mice data from mouse studies, again, we

1155
01:17:26,600 --> 01:17:29,320
Speaker 1: will never ever be able to do these studies in humans.

1156
01:17:29,360 --> 01:17:33,240
Speaker 1: We can't dissect the amygdaloon also, that will never happen.

1157
01:17:34,080 --> 01:17:40,000
Speaker 1: We do have large epidemiological studies documenting already people who

1158
01:17:40,000 --> 01:17:42,439
Speaker 1: consume a lot of artificial sweeteners are more likely to

1159
01:17:42,439 --> 01:17:45,679
Speaker 1: have anxiety disorders, they're more likely to have depression, they're

1160
01:17:45,720 --> 01:17:48,040
Speaker 1: more likely to have a wide range of mental health conditions.

1161
01:17:48,600 --> 01:17:51,760
Speaker 1: So we've got probably the best level of evidence we're

1162
01:17:51,800 --> 01:17:54,559
Speaker 1: ever going to get already in humans that this does

1163
01:17:54,600 --> 01:17:58,440
Speaker 1: apply to humans. It seems But what this means concretely

1164
01:17:58,560 --> 01:18:02,120
Speaker 1: is that if your mother or drank a lot of

1165
01:18:02,160 --> 01:18:07,240
Speaker 1: diet coke, you might have an anxiety disorder because of that.

1166
01:18:08,240 --> 01:18:11,120
Speaker 1: Even if you have never had a diet coke in

1167
01:18:11,160 --> 01:18:14,120
Speaker 1: your life now, of course, more than likely you've had

1168
01:18:14,120 --> 01:18:16,559
Speaker 1: plenty of diet cokes, because if your mother drinks diet coke,

1169
01:18:16,920 --> 01:18:20,559
Speaker 1: she's probably offered you some and you have probably also

1170
01:18:21,040 --> 01:18:24,760
Speaker 1: been consuming a lot of it as well. Now does

1171
01:18:24,800 --> 01:18:27,799
Speaker 1: that mean everybody who drinks aspartame has an anxiety disorder?

1172
01:18:27,800 --> 01:18:32,240
Speaker 1: Of course not. It's one of probably hundreds or thousands

1173
01:18:32,280 --> 01:18:36,320
Speaker 1: of risk factors. So it's just one way to begin

1174
01:18:36,400 --> 01:18:40,280
Speaker 1: to understand that. But that's why I come back to

1175
01:18:40,400 --> 01:18:45,240
Speaker 1: the generic recommendation I make, which is, if you are

1176
01:18:45,280 --> 01:18:47,479
Speaker 1: suffering from a mental health condition, or if you want

1177
01:18:47,479 --> 01:18:51,600
Speaker 1: to prevent mental health conditions, eat real whole foods, just

1178
01:18:51,680 --> 01:18:54,400
Speaker 1: eat real food. And Aspertain's not a real food. It's

1179
01:18:54,439 --> 01:18:56,120
Speaker 1: just not me.

1180
01:18:56,320 --> 01:18:59,080
Speaker 2: Thank you, Chris, Yeah, Chris, thank you so much for

1181
01:19:00,120 --> 01:19:04,160
Speaker 2: research openness vulnerability as well going into your personal story.

1182
01:19:04,200 --> 01:19:07,240
Speaker 2: And we end every episode of On Purpose with a

1183
01:19:07,240 --> 01:19:10,000
Speaker 2: final five. These questions have to be answered in one

1184
01:19:10,080 --> 01:19:13,720
Speaker 2: word to one sentence maximum and so, Chris Palmer, these

1185
01:19:13,760 --> 01:19:16,320
Speaker 2: are your final five. The first question is what is

1186
01:19:16,360 --> 01:19:19,559
Speaker 2: the best mental health advice you've ever heard or received?

1187
01:19:20,120 --> 01:19:21,519
Speaker 1: Accept yourself for who you are.

1188
01:19:22,000 --> 01:19:24,960
Speaker 2: Question number two, what is the worst mental health advice

1189
01:19:25,080 --> 01:19:26,240
Speaker 2: you've ever heard or received?

1190
01:19:26,800 --> 01:19:30,600
Speaker 1: Let's talk about your relationship with your father as a

1191
01:19:30,600 --> 01:19:33,200
Speaker 1: way of understanding everything that's wrong with you.

1192
01:19:33,840 --> 01:19:37,479
Speaker 2: Question number three, what's something you used to believe was

1193
01:19:37,520 --> 01:19:39,839
Speaker 2: true about mental health but you don't anymore?

1194
01:19:40,160 --> 01:19:45,720
Speaker 1: The chronics severe mental illnesses are a life sentence.

1195
01:19:46,120 --> 01:19:48,080
Speaker 2: It's changeable, it's not impossible.

1196
01:19:48,720 --> 01:19:49,760
Speaker 1: They are treatable.

1197
01:19:51,720 --> 01:19:55,519
Speaker 2: Question number four on what's been the most important mental

1198
01:19:55,520 --> 01:19:58,639
Speaker 2: health habit or change you've made in your own life?

1199
01:19:59,000 --> 01:19:59,920
Speaker 1: Changing my diet?

1200
01:20:00,280 --> 01:20:02,840
Speaker 2: And fifth and final question. If you could create one

1201
01:20:02,960 --> 01:20:05,479
Speaker 2: law that everyone in the world had to follow, what

1202
01:20:05,520 --> 01:20:06,400
Speaker 2: would it be?

1203
01:20:06,400 --> 01:20:07,479
Speaker 1: Be kind to each other?

1204
01:20:08,160 --> 01:20:11,639
Speaker 2: Chris Palmer, Thank you so much the books called brain Energy.

1205
01:20:12,120 --> 01:20:16,240
Speaker 2: Grateful for your time, your insight, your research, your openness,

1206
01:20:16,840 --> 01:20:19,719
Speaker 2: and just thank you for showing up with so much

1207
01:20:19,760 --> 01:20:23,479
Speaker 2: passion and enthusiasm and energy for what you're doing. And

1208
01:20:23,760 --> 01:20:26,120
Speaker 2: I'm really really happy that we got to sit down

1209
01:20:26,120 --> 01:20:29,720
Speaker 2: and spend this time together. I know that you know

1210
01:20:29,840 --> 01:20:33,800
Speaker 2: I definitely believe in the gut brain connection and just

1211
01:20:33,880 --> 01:20:36,000
Speaker 2: the value of what we're putting in our bodies and

1212
01:20:36,000 --> 01:20:38,800
Speaker 2: how it's affecting our mind. I think you can, if

1213
01:20:38,800 --> 01:20:41,280
Speaker 2: you're still enough, you can feel it on a daily basis.

1214
01:20:41,680 --> 01:20:44,080
Speaker 2: I love that science back set up, but I could

1215
01:20:44,080 --> 01:20:48,000
Speaker 2: probably know it just from sitting with different foods and

1216
01:20:48,040 --> 01:20:50,680
Speaker 2: seeing how I feel internally and noticing the difference. And

1217
01:20:50,760 --> 01:20:55,040
Speaker 2: so I'm glad that you know all of these recommendations

1218
01:20:55,040 --> 01:20:57,880
Speaker 2: and solutions are coming forward for people to actually be

1219
01:20:57,920 --> 01:21:00,800
Speaker 2: able to make a genuine change in their life, a

1220
01:21:00,800 --> 01:21:03,160
Speaker 2: misleading version of change. So thank you for your work,

1221
01:21:03,240 --> 01:21:05,280
Speaker 2: and thank you for coming on on purpose today.

1222
01:21:05,439 --> 01:21:07,639
Speaker 1: No, thank you Jay for having me, and thank you

1223
01:21:08,040 --> 01:21:11,040
Speaker 1: for all the work you do to help so many people,

1224
01:21:11,280 --> 01:21:12,679
Speaker 1: millions and millions of people.

1225
01:21:13,120 --> 01:21:15,719
Speaker 2: Thank you, Thank you, Chris. I hope you'll come back again.

1226
01:21:15,880 --> 01:21:16,200
Speaker 1: Thanks.

1227
01:21:17,040 --> 01:21:19,960
Speaker 2: If you love this episode, you love my conversation with

1228
01:21:20,160 --> 01:21:25,000
Speaker 2: Dr Joe Dispenser on why stressing, overthinking negatively impacts your

1229
01:21:25,040 --> 01:21:28,000
Speaker 2: brain and heart and how to change your habits that

1230
01:21:28,080 --> 01:21:31,879
Speaker 2: are on autopilot. Forgiveness is when you overcome the emotion

1231
01:21:32,040 --> 01:21:35,120
Speaker 2: of your past and so you feel so good that

1232
01:21:35,160 --> 01:21:37,599
Speaker 2: you no longer want to feel bad. If you love

1233
01:21:37,640 --> 01:21:41,600
Speaker 2: this episode, you love my conversation with Emma Watson on

1234
01:21:41,680 --> 01:21:45,400
Speaker 2: why she stepped away from Hollywood to redefine success and

1235
01:21:45,479 --> 01:21:47,439
Speaker 2: rediscover a sense of self.

1236
01:21:47,560 --> 01:21:50,559
Speaker 1: It's not that I have stopped doing interviews because I

1237
01:21:50,640 --> 01:21:51,960
Speaker 1: want to hide myself away.

1238
01:21:52,240 --> 01:21:54,599
Speaker 2: Because I wanted to be able to have a certain

1239
01:21:54,640 --> 01:21:56,920
Speaker 2: type of conversation that I didn't seem abel, to find

1240
01:21:56,920 --> 01:21:57,439
Speaker 2: a space for